If you've ever wanted additional proof of the cult clergy's amateur standing, you've but to read the August 24 "Corner" on the sgg.org/cult website. Last week Wee Dan was on a "short Summer (sic) respite" -- does that mean the luxurious Bishop's Lodge in impossibly hip Santa Fe? -- so one of the McFakers served as guest bloviator, where he taunted the flat-broke Gerties with a travelogue of his recent extended holiday in France. His cringe-worthy account is an object lesson in how Dannie's doubtfully ordained slackers fall miles short of the mark of the thoroughly trained, broadly cultivated Catholic priests of the past.
Before we began reading the turgid prose, we were amused to observe in the place of Li'l Dan's armorial bearings a coat of arms (obviously snatched from the Internet) displaying the guest writer's surname. Hilariously, the booby left the surname on the escroll, the place for the motto.* Ignoring, for the moment, the prohibition against assuming another's arms even if you share the same last name (a big no-no under heraldic law), we point out that this simpleminded "priest" witlessly retained the helmet and mantling of the borrowed achievement.
Now, everyone with a little ecclesiastical culture knows that once a man's been ordained, he must lay aside any secular heraldic achievement, even if he had a right to it originally. Accordingly, a priest's escutcheon (shield) must be ensigned by a black galero (ecclesiastical hat) with one fiocco (tassel) on either side. Raiding the web for a coat of arms to which you are not entitled is middle-school-level dilettantism in its lowest form. But if you're trashy enough to do it, you should at least try to get the externals right.
The body of the "Corner's" message is equally awful. We won't mention the stilted narrative or the pre-adolescent ruminations or the laughable attempts to ape "One Hand's" mannerisms. What we will focus on are the amateur's misspellings of French words. Like his mentor Dannie, this laggard lacks the energy to double check the accent marks or the received spelling. Maybe he can't tell the difference. Perhaps it's owing to a perceptual disability, say, some form of Sensory Processing Disorder. Who knows? Whatever the origin, it's the mark of a sloppy, untrained, and immature mind.
Let's take the nickel tour of this illiterate's orthographic errors:
Sacrè Coeur instead of Sacré-Cœur; Claude de la Colombiére instead of Colombière; Catherine Laboure instead of Labouré; the Curè’s feast, after somehow managing twice before to spell Curé correctly; Paray le Monial instead of Paray-le-Monial; Mont St. Michel instead of Mont Saint-Michel.If this yokel was able to cut and paste a coat of arms from the 'Net, why couldn't he have taken the trouble to do the same for these French proper nouns? Irremediable amateurism, that's why!
Please don't get us wrong. Our purpose here isn't to horse-whip the village idiot of Tradtown. This loser gets enough disrespect from his fellow sede clergy and his masters, who can barely tolerate his morose presence. (He's really not the "kind of guy" they want to hang with.) Our aim is far more serious -- and charitable. We want to make the case that such ignorance and inattention suggest these "clergy" aren't prepared to sweat the details in the sacred sciences either. That's the real and practical problem for today's Catholics who need guidance on moral issues in light of advances in science and technology.
Contrary to what some commenters may say, we propose that a priest's educational and intellectual attainment has a direct, practical, spiritual benefit for the faithful. A rigorously prepared priest, well versed in moral theology, not the sickly sweet, piously sentimental tracts Granny likes to read, is the best spiritual resource the laity can have. Now, this goofball is pious enough; that's for sure. In fact, he's probably the most pious of all the cult clown crew. Nevertheless, piety alone is not enough for a secular priest charged with the cure of souls. A solid, accurate, professional knowledge of theology is essential for the salvation of souls.
Most sede priests, pious or otherwise, are unfit to provide answers to many questions that arise in the 21st century, unless the problem exactly matches conditions of the 1950s. (And even then, their frightening amateurism and poor training lead them to make up an answer rather than to research it.) Why the incompetence? First, because their seminary formation is the worst you can imagine. Second, their weak or non-existent academic preparation and the cult's anti-intellectualism bar them from attending institutions of advanced study to make up for their educational deficits. Third, their intellectual bigotry and the absence of assiduous, remedial, independent study render them incapable of evaluating the work of formally trained Novus Ordo or SSPX theological writers, who could be of use in unraveling some of the thorny moral/ethical problems that 21st-century Catholics face in their daily lives.
That's right. We did say that N.O. and SSPX writers can be of value to Trads. In spite of what the blowhard rector and Erroneous Antonius would have you believe, there are many well trained non-sede priests, e.g., Juan Carlos Iscara, SSPX, and Richard Sparks, C.S.P., who are thinking and writing today within an orthodox Catholic framework, particularly in the field of bioethics. If sede clergy possessed an adequate foundation, they would at least be able to evaluate the work of these far better prepared churchmen so as to help guide the laity in making certain decisions in a world where medical science has advanced further than 1950s theologians ever contemplated. A sede priest with an open mind, a discernment that comes from a rigorous formation, and a zeal for souls would be able to assess the orthodoxy of a particular written opinion and offer the faithful informed guidance rather than superstition.
However, insofar as sedes are not taught sufficient content and cannot skillfully reason through a theological question, they prefer to make things up or reflexively say NO. (Many are by nature intellectually inferior and could never master the material even if their teachers were professionally trained.) When faced with a dilemma, many resort to arrogant stonewalling. No research -- except, perhaps, to confer with a cult master, who's just as ill-prepared but more forcefully opinionated. No looking things up. No sober analysis based on well-learned and oft-practiced theological principles. They just widen their eyes, vigorously shake their empty heads, and leave the laity in tears to fend for themselves.
The bottom line is that these sede know-nothings are rank amateurs, whose advice in the confessional or in a counseling session is as misinformed as their spelling of French geographical names.
* Should this bumpkin one day seek to become legitimately armigerous, may we suggest Horace's Virtus Post Nummos ("virtue after money") as a suitable motto for a groveling lackey owned by the mammonite SW Ohio cult?
You sound like a very angry person. I don't know who peed in your Cheerios, but it looks like you really hate your local chapel. Hey, if it's that bad, just go somewhere else. If you have no other chapel nearby, or there's no priest who's good enough for you, then I dunno... Maybe you can just stay home, and then at your particular judgment try to convince God to give you an exemption from the obligation to assist at Mass and receive the Sacraments on the grounds that you hated the priests you had available. The advantage of this plan is that it saves you a lot of money that you would otherwise have to put in the collection basket (which *really* seems to irritate you), and you don't have to listen to anyone in a collar telling you how to live, which you also seem to really resent. Funny, I always figured that's what the priest was there for, to teach people how to live. Anyway, the staying home option isn't guaranteed to work, because problematic priests have been around since the beginning of the Church, and I've never read any catechism that said people were exempt from going to church or the sacraments if they didn't like their clergy. But hey, it's worth a shot, but keep in mind that, if that excuse doesn't fly on the other side of the veil, you'll have some *really* big problems and it'll be a little late to do anything about them ...
ReplyDeleteYou should know that the Sunday precept and "Easter duty" apply only in the institutional Church. No one in Tradistan is obligated -- especially where there is positive doubt about the validity of the "clergy's" orders. Now that's where the *really* big problems lie: people receiving possibly invalid sacraments from impostors.
DeleteNo, we'll save our money for real priests who aren't cultists. Don't you fret: we've found them, and we're quite content. You're free to live with the doubt -- and with demonstrably unfit "clergy."
If you've found these priests why aren't their identities and whereabouts being publicized far and wide? I have a positive opinion of your work for the most part. It seems to me there's some reason below the radar why you mention them but only in a passing way. Why?
DeleteThe Sunday obligation and Easter duty don't oblige anymore? How do you figure that? The Third Commandment has expired or something? And what about "unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, you shall not have life in you." You're saying that doesn't apply now? This really is some scary stuff.
ReplyDeleteIf you're worried about my Sacraments being doubtful, just pretend they're the doubtful Sacraments from the Indult. Those doesn't seem to be a problem in your book.
Oh well, do what you want. It’s your life. But why don’t you come back and appear to me after you die, if God allows it, and tell me how that "no one is obligated" thing worked out for you? I’ll keep a fire extinguisher on my nightstand just in case.
We were referring to the positive law on these matters, which Tradistan must assume is suspended.
DeleteI learned my Faith from a catechism book, which told me that we have a grave obligation to go to Mass on Sunday. This is because of the Third Commandment, which in its present form dates back to the time of Moses. As far as the Easter duty, we have the words of Our Lord Himself saying we have to receive holy communion if we want to save our souls. Are you disputing this?
DeleteExcuse me, dear Sirs, but I think I must mention that every learned Catholic does know that the Sunday and feast day obligation is not a matter of faith but of Church law or discipline, as our good Reader rightly pointed out. One could easily find proof for this well known fact when one looks into the history of the Church, where in ancient times the Sunday obligation was not known, or even in more recent times, that a feast was a holy day of obligation in one diocese but not in another, or that an old holy day was abolished and a new one established. You could also look it up in Wernz-Vidal, numbers 501ff.
DeleteSo, in this case, what you find in your catechism is nothing but an extract of Church law, which, in our days, is codified in the Code of Canon Law (CIC). Granted that Canon law is not suspended under the sedevacantist premise, you can read under Can. 1249 in the 1917 CIC where the obligation to hear Mass can be fulfilled. That is, generally speaking, in Churches, in public and semi-public (but not private or domestic) oratories or even under the open sky, as long as it is celebrated legitimately in a Catholic rite. But since, again, generally speaking, none of the sedevacantist Mass-centres are canonically erected Churches, not even oratories, this cannot apply. Now, you might say that the Masses are celebrated in a Catholic rite. But if we look it up again in the Church's laws, we can hardly say that these Masses are celebrated legitimately (according to Canon law, that is, under the premise that it applies), as for a licit celebration a priest must be immune from any irregularities, which he would have incurred automatically by searching ordination by a Bishop who wasn't consecrated with Papal approval. Or even if he was consecrated by a Bishop with Papal approval, he has no competent, that is canonically established superior which can grant him the licentia to celebrate Mass (I took this latter part from Wernz-Vidal, number 72).
Of course, this does not treat priests ordained before 1958 (with their own parishes) nor the natural as well as divine obligation for the cultus divinus.
Anonymous, why don’t you crawl back in your hole? One village idiot is enough, without you demonstrating that you’re an even BIGGER one! First off, the article was NOT about going to Mass (or NOT going to Mass); it was about the INCOMPETENCY of sede priests – especially the idiot who embarrassed himself by “subbing” for Dannie in the SGG bulletin. (His article was like something out of a kindergarten writing class. It had more “sugar” in it than a Nicaraguan cane field.)
ReplyDeleteInstead of commenting about the author’s assessment of the sede priest in question, you chose to ignore that, and instead started (wrongfully) accusing the author of all sorts of tangential issues that had NOTHING to do with the subject at hand – and you then proceed to judge the author, hinting that he’ll be in need of a “fire extinguisher” after he dies. Anonymous, keep your snide remarks (and your fire extinguisher) for yourself.
Let me pipe in here, if I may. Anon, haven't you already received the Body & Blood of Christ in First Communion and many times since? So that's taken care of. As a just punishment God seems to have turned His face from us and we are wandering in the desert, so to speak. Are you suggesting that we to go to doubtful or invalidly ordained priests??!! If there are no valid priests, I hardly think that it pleases God to go there. That doesn't make sense. If there is a valid priest within a reasonable distance, then we need to fulfill our Sunday obligation. If there isn't, God doesn't expect the impossible and we must accept this. What we must NOT do is condone the doubtful or invalid priest by participating in his "services" no matter how much we miss going to Mass. We are in a crisis & these are not normal times. Deal with it intelligently.
ReplyDelete"Any cause which is moderately grave excuses from the precept -- namely, any reason which involves some notable inconvenience or harm to mind or body either of oneself or another." 425, "baby" Prümmer, quoting St. Alphonsus.
ReplyDeleteDoubtfully valid priests pose a harm to our mind. There's also the question of proper place.
"Most sede priests, pious or otherwise, are unfit to provide answers to many questions that arise in the 21st century, unless the problem exactly matches conditions of the 1950s. "
ReplyDeleteI may have done this analysis before, but I am suggesting that sede priests and generally "traditionalists" may be 200 years behind the times, with the addition of small numbers. Consider that the disaster of Vatican 2 must have taken decades of conspiring prior to Vatican 2, let's say back to 1910. So really we need to turn the clock back not to the 1950s which was ripe for the fall of the 1960s but back to the early 1900s, or earlier. That's a century ago, plus the lost development of century and keeping up with Satan's warfare, hence I suggest 200 years of lost development in a sense.
A good example of not being able to keep up with Satan's tactics, I believe, is internet pornography and attendant sins of the flesh. This is a battle totally unlike any in history as regards sins of the flesh, and I believe Our Lady said something like "more souls go to hell due to sins of the flesh than for any other reason" (http://archive.org/stream/TheMessageOfOurLadyOfFatimaWithPicture/fatimaSelectionspic_djvu.txt - source). And of course there is simple fornication, which younger people have grown up to be more "tolerant" about. The levels of fornication and adultery going on are unprecedented. Adultery, we know, is even to look at a woman with lust (who is not one's wife) Matthew 5:28. This is such a problem today that there are some who believe that the indulging in lusts is a kind of necessary health practice and that abstinence, virginity, purity, chastity, and the like are foolishly unhealthy. This is utterly a battle I see silence on and probably one that is being totally lost (I'm not sure how everyone else is doing, nor how to broach the subject). Suffice it to say that by analogy there are new rules of war and new battle tactics need to be devised (which don't contradict tradition).
Likewise, another battle unrelated to that one which I see as lost in a large degree is that of missionary outreach to non-Catholics. While heretics like Jehovah's Witnesses and mormons have organized teams of missionaries for their false doctrines, the fragmented traditionalists launch invectives upon each other rather than Satan's clearer allies. Of course this just makes the Devil laugh, that trads can't patiently work to reach consensus of the correct and true position to take in this time of grave apostasy.
Proverbs 16:8, "Pride goeth before destruction: and the spirit is lifted up before a fall." I think this is what happened to the sede priests. They were put in a tough position and rather than seek correction, they sought control in a situation out of control. Fearing that if they made too many mistakes, they might be abandoned, they decided to defend themselves at all turns. This kind of anxiety led to the angry debating attitude that happens at every turn as well as other manipulative attitudes to try to maintain control. Likewise, unfortunately there are a lot of trads who seem to be fatalists, who believe that people cannot change or convert from the errors of their ways. They expect that everyone knows better. I don't think that's the case, I don't think that's a sufficiently humble view, because I drifted in the novus ordo only until someone explained to me alternative possible explanations. So I do believe generally in missionary work (converting people) and in believing in God to work to convert those who are perhaps divided from us at the present moment. The harsh "hardline" judgmentalness of some priests seems to ignore that "today's enemies may be tomorrow's allies", and vice versa. This is a concept directly from St. Paul's conversion from Judaism in the Gospel.
ReplyDeleteWe assume the immediately above pair of comments came from the same wise author, so we'll combine our replies.
DeleteWe find the analyses spot on, particular the remarks about missionary activity. Perhaps the traditionalists' failure in that sphere is deliberate: the sedes were never in it to save souls in the first place. Their motive was to carve out a very comfortable life for themselves, so any others would be seen as competitors, not colleagues laboring singlemindedly in the Lord's vineyard.
On a personal note, we find at the root of the sedes' plight the absence of wise, transformative leadership, which could persuade the warring factions to put aside differences and discipline their errant clergy. Sede leadership has been thoroughly undistinguished and usually despicable. Their early fragmentation prohibited the emergence of a system of quality control that could sort out the bad apples. Instead, every ambitious ne'er-do-well could rise to the top by simply breaking off and forming his own little group. As in the secular world, rotten leadership results in bankruptcy. With so many small-minded idiots guarding their own turf, it would have been impossible for a gifted leader to save the sect.
We don't believe the sede amateurs ever were the answer to the current apostasy -- they were a symptom.Their influence is finished, even though their little clans may continue for some years.
I'm reading through the site from its inception.
DeleteIn this piece one of the qualities that stood out was 'zeal for souls.' This is exactly what seems to be missing - I think it is inborn and the result of a real vocation to the secular priesthood as opposed to religious life.
Pardon if my writing seems simplistic; I was not born Catholic and have a looooong story about how I 'got here.'
I agree that of all the three, Bp. Dolan is the one who has devotional tendencies. He is using devotional spirit in his own life. He genuinely seems to love the liturgy and appreciates the writings of St. Gertrude the Great because of what he sees - and I can see in reading it - the regular references to the liturgical calendar.
I found this coming through explicitly and implicitly in podcasts.
I don't doubt that he is also in panic mode - the job is too big for him. There is actually no shame in that; a big change is called for and if it were made, everyone would respect the decision whatever it is, and not only that, would be happy for him... and it would create vocations if he did the kind of thing I 'wish' he would just do - if it brings an end to one chapter and permits the beginning of a new life for him.
Lives can be retrieved 'late' when people are genuinely in pain and really serious spiritually enough to let go of the money aspect.
He began as a monk, I think. Because of the way his life went, he ended up in his situation. I don't think he planned everything out to get there.
I am researching traditio's latest data base or rather starting again there... once I finish my great reading of this website.
I agree with the people who have asked, along the way - I am reading everything from the beginning - once the owner of the site began to state that an intellectually prepared clergy can be found and that the pistrinaliturgical writer(s) has or have found one such chapel, for the name of that chapel.
Please do name it. As for me, in Honolulu, I have found one chapel so far, in Ohio a state which holds no appeal otherwise to me at all - it is Infant of Prague chapel.
I like the mission statement. Fr. Hall is among the people who suffered the most in the saga that thelaypulpit, sggscandal, and this site document. He is Gold.
Also, if you go to the site, you will be healed of any mental agitation you may have felt before arrival by the music playing there. It starts upon arrival. The site plays whether or not the computer is on-line.
Readers, as usual you miss the point. You are wise in your own conceit. You strain at the nat and swallow the camel. You, like Craig, think that everything can be solved by being learned. The Devil is more learned than all of you combined. If you want to defeat him you must humble yourself and be holy. All of the geat efforts at conversion were begun and brought to fruition by humility, beginning with Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. You are so smug in your own conceit that you cant see the forrest for the trees. The humility and holiness shown by the "ignoramuses" that are produced by the "Seminary in the Swamp" have much more worth in the eyes of God than all of your vaunted learning. You can probably find all kind of grametical errors in this reply but the substance of my words I'm sure you understand. Get off your high horse and humble yourself if you want your message to have any effect in solving the terrible crisis that we are in. Show me one saint that converted anyone to the true faith without humility.
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely wrong. Before the crisis, the Church maintained the highest intellectual standards for her clergy because brains, education, and solid knowledge are necessary for the salvation of souls. The swampland idiots may have their hearts in the right place, but they don't have the head for the Catholic priesthood, and as such are odious to religion.
DeleteWe deny your imputation that we lack humility simply because we insist that priests be well formed, studious, and intelligent and those who are not should be dismissed. In order to weather this crisis, we desperately need priests with brains, not impostors who think, act, and write like children.
We need professionals, not amateurs.
Reader YOU are absolutely wrong. The mess of Vatican II was brought about by learned men. How do you defend that stupidity of learned priests and bishops? So you have made my point. One humble holy priest is worth a whole seminary of learned priests who have no humility and saintliness.
ReplyDeleteTo give you a response as simplistic as your reply, we point out that it was illiterate, "humble" pinheads who counseled acceptance of the Vatican II reforms. We lived through the era, and we heard the message. We recall how the less gifted clergy latched onto Vatican II because it represented the triumph of emotion over the intellect. We saw first hand how the seminaries were purged of the intellectually gifted to be filled with airheads who "felt" deeply.
ReplyDeleteIf you were better informed, you would know that much of the "learning" that went into the reforms was often made up by the reformers, just like the cult masters make up their theology today.
The intellectuals fought hard but couldn't overcome the Modernist plot to fill the Church with second-raters, who denied the primacy of the intellect. Just like you.
Precisely, the learning that made up the reform was made by the reformers who were the inteligentia, the men of intellect. If the intellect has primacy then why are we in the mess that we are in today? I, too, lived through the era. I am 88 years old and a former seminarian. So don't presume that you have the last word on this topic.
ReplyDeleteSince you’re apparently better schooled than poor soul Anon. 9/2, 1:38 p.m., you deserve a serious reply to you question (to wit, “If the intellect has primacy then why are we in the mess that we are in today?”).
ReplyDeleteVery briefly, in our view, the thinking behind Vatican II was the result of the revolution in European thinking attendant to 19th century romanticism. A number of cultural and literary historians have maintained that romanticism displaced the primacy of the intellect with the primacy of emotion. In the upheaval, the visceral upended the cerebral. Romantic doctrine opposed rationalism with its emphasis on objectivity, method, logical discourse, restraint, imitation etc. The romantic preference for the non-rational impulses substituted subjectivity, spontaneity, myth and symbol, and personal feeling. It was a “mode of imagination and vision” utterly new to the West, and it caught on. The Church notably resisted as long as she could.
However, romanticism sort of got into the intellectual water supply, and many from the intelligentsia (the spelling is owing to the Russian and Polish origin of the term) succumbed to its effects. (Smart people can be attracted to all kinds of strange ideas, witness the heresiarchs of the past.) In addition, society as a whole accepted the romantic vision. As the Modernists penetrated Rome and Catholic institutions, the romantic sensibility entered, too, as part of the fabric of normal thought. The death of Pius X ended the efforts of the sodalitium to root out this perverse habit of mind. By the time of the council, the intellectuals who favored the romantic sensibility had risen to positions of power and were able to thwart the intellectuals who opposed their anti-rational sensibility. The majority of the Catholic world just went along, and the rest is the mess we’re in.
You should note that although the reformers were indeed members of the intelligentsia of the Church, many members belonging to the same intelligentsia were not of the same mind as the reformers. Therefore, contrary to what your first sentence implies, not all the smart churchmen supported the reforms. We knew many brilliant Thomists who resisted as long as they could. Some of these have labored clandestinely over the last half-century in a small attempt to undermine the evil. In the end, we think they just got out-politicked. Their message could not be heard because the West had essentially accepted the romantic mode as the way to see the world.
And since we old timers are sharing memories, we recall distinctly how many of our most ungifted fellow students were infected by the romantic sensibility, for they thought themselves excluded by the high standards of rationalism. Now was their chance to get into the seminary, which had previously barred them for the lack of talent. Not surprisingly, in Tradistan, we have detected the same romantic attitudes, v.g., in the highly emotional writings of the kingpins and the general contempt for the life of the mind, as is so present in Anon. 9/2, 1:38 p.m.
BTW, we never did presume to have the last word on this topic. We hope that everyone continues talking about how Dannie, Tony Baloney, Big Don the rector, and the doubtfully ordained clown clergy fall short of the true Catholic ideal. We’ll post a perfect example this Saturday.
"Very briefly, in our view, the thinking behind Vatican II was the result of the revolution in European thinking attendant to 19th century romanticism."
DeleteThis is not the case. If I can put it briefly myself, Vatican II is the continuation of the ancient mystery of iniquity, and its purpose is to chastise Catholics for the lukewarmness and faithlessness.
Yes, the Jews were involved, and the Masons, and the Rationalist, and Romantics, and the Liberals and the Revolutionaries, and the Hegelians, and the Marxists, and so on and so on. But you have to look past Satan's puppets and stare right at the puppetmaster himself: For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.
Remember Pope Leo XIII's vision of Our Lord granting Satan the permission and the power to attack the Church. It wasn't these Modernists and these Jews and these Masons or whoever that attacked the Church; it was Satan, through these various proxies.
As a PS - why does it have to be intelligence vs. humility? An intelligent person can also be humble as well! I believe it was St. Therese who said that humility is really truthfulness. Seeing yourself how you really are. If you don't have many talents, then accepting that but still work toward perfection. If you are talented, knowing that those gifts are from God through no effort on your part, and they are to be nourished and used for His greater glory. Really, it's that simple!
ReplyDeleteGood point. We don't know why Anon. 9/2 1:38 p.m. established that antinomy. We have noticed that's it's a very common Traddie trope (probably invented to defend their clergy's sorry endowments in the area of the mind).
DeleteI probably shouldn't say this, but I do believe that those poor traddies have neither intelligence nor humility - neither the trads in the pew nor the clergy. The clergy can't pass on what they don't possess and the pew sitters are left destitute, Poor things are trying to chew on stones.
ReplyDeleteOops - I should have written that if the pew sitters aren't being fed pablum, then they are fed stones, and what father would feed his child that stuff?!
ReplyDeleteBrilliantly said.
ReplyDeleteAs we'll show on Saturday, these clueless "Fathers" feed their children the bitter wormwood of error in addition to the indigestible stones of ignorance. Perhaps they're so dumb they think they're offering ambrosia and manna.