Saturday, July 8, 2017

THE NOTHING OF A NAME

Nomina sunt notae rerum ("names are the marks of things"). Latin Legal Maxim

Below is an excerpt from an e-mail regarding a position of ours that's stirred up heated commentary. In light of the frenzy, handwringing, and head shaking this is the perfect time to explain our reasoning in a more detail.
I get it when you say Trad Clergy do not have a mission from the Church. No Dismissal [sic, Ed.] Letters, no Mandate etc. Problem comes when you say they are not Clergy in the "strict sense". Websters  [sic, Ed.defines Clergy as "the body of men and women ordained to the service of God in the Christian church" [...] How come you say trad priests and bishops are not Clergy in the strict sense. The dictionary is a solid authority. We call Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopals [sic, Ed.] and Novus Ordos Clergy all the time. Seems like Trad Clergy are the same. They are ordained and Christian and serve God [...]
According to the general understanding in a religiously neutral, pluralistic society, we suppose sedes are clergy in the way that unchurched Joe Sixpack identifies an appointed or self-appointed minister of any confession as a clergyman. However, in our assertion we added the qualifying phrase "in the strict sense" purposely to exclude that over broad interpretation. We'll readily admit it must lie behind the definition found in every popular dictionary  — Merriam-Webster, New Oxford American, American Heritage, Random House,  you name it. However, our understanding is grounded in both the underlying meaning of the word and the privilegia or special rights traditional canonical doctrine grants to persons aggregated to the Roman Catholic clergy.

Let's begin with the etymology, which the Church subsumes in her own understanding. The word clergy comes from the Greek κλῆρος (klḗros), "what is obtained by lot, allotted portion, a share, a portion assigned, that which is assigned by lot, portion, share, place." Hence, at the most fundamental level, clergy are persons in the Roman Catholic Church who share ecclesiastical office and power and therefore exercise the clerical function in accordance with the portion or share of Church authority they possesses.

By etymology alone, then, it should be clear that outsider sedes are not in the Roman Catholic clerical state, which entitles its members to special rights. Absent those rights, no one may claim to be a member of the Roman Catholic clergy, valid orders notwithstanding. As Fr. Ledwolorz explained in Roberti's Dictionary of Moral Theology, the privileges of the clerical state are directed toward protecting the clergy's dignity. Without the privileges, there can be no clerical dignity and consequently no protection.  Bearing in mind that a privilege is an advantage or a benefit not enjoyed by everyone, the following practical consideration of the privileges of the clerical state vis-à-vis the sedes ought to convince PL's enlightened readership of the canonically disadvantaged cult "clergy's" profound otherness:
The first privilege is the privilegium canonis ("privilege of the canon") or the privilege of personal inviolability. There are indeed severe juridical penalties for laying violent hands on Catholic clergy. Nevertheless, if, after a physical altercation with a sede, a penitent layman approached the local ordinary to whom such a case is reserved, he immediately would learn he had not committed a sacrilegious offense against a bona-fide Roman Catholic clergyman. Chancery officials would then send him on his merry way.
The second is the privilegium fori  ("privilege of the forum").  A competent ecclesiastical authority would neither grant nor deny permission to cite these men before a secular court, nor would an ecclesiastical tribunal ever sit in judgment over them. They would have to face the music like any other layman who ran afoul of the law — in civil or criminal court before a judge and prosecutor. 
The third is the privilegium immunitatis ("privilege of immunity"). The institutional Church would not inflict excommunication on Catholic civil authorities who would impose on sedes burdens and obligations not compatible with the clerical state.  The powers-that-be are free to run roughshod over the sedes with impunity.
The fourth and most topical privilege (for the U.S. at least) is the privilegium competentiae ("privilege of competency"). An ecclesiastical judge would never grant a deadbeat sede "priest" or "bishop" a sufficient income for decent maintenance if the debt-ridden parasite were "forced to seek livelihood in an unworthy manner," as Ledwolorz expresses it.* His sole recourse might be to "Judge Judy," but then she would quickly inform the sede in front of millions of viewers, "You have no case! Pay your bills! Case dismissed. Byrd, escort this bum out of my courtroom."
This last privilege deserves a concrete look. On November 11, 2009 (5:50:17 PM EST), Big Don sent Cheeseball Checkie what looked like a form letter to be personalized and distributed to the legion of righteous souls who had fled the vile cult in the wake of the $GG School Scandal. In it, after summoning a wry, apocalyptic vision of "pigeons nesting in St. Gertrudes [sic] Church,**" the ever self-interested Tradzilla proposed these deliciously spiteful questions:
...if Bishop Dolan and Father Cekada go into retirement, or if you find one of them as a greeter in Wal-Mart in order to support himself, will you be then satisfied and content?...Will it encourage vocations to see Bishop Dolan stocking the shelves at Kroger, reduced to shame and poverty because he did not solve a school problem the way some thought he should?
In our reading, the Donster himself seems to stipulate tacitly that the privilege of competency would not be operational in the case of retirement or removal of the sede duo. If the Gruesome Twosome wanted to eat, they'd have to accept any employment they could get because they'd have no standing to demand support from the Church, in whose eyes they are aliens. As is true with all organizations, only members possess rights, and the absence of rights attendant to membership is robust, perhaps even conclusive, evidence that an individual does not belong to the group.

Inasmuch, therefore, as these oddballs are not Roman Catholic clergy in the strict sense, they possess none of the prerogatives of the clerical state (e.g., jurisdiction, precedence, etc.)  At best, their condition is, in effect, that of a laicized priest or bishop in the Latin Church, who has lost the clerical state (although his orders remain valid if they had been validly conferred in the first place).  For this reason, PL has argued that sedes, strictly speaking, should use neither clerical garb nor the distinctive titles of authentic Roman Catholic clergy.

Of course, we aren't naïve. In 21st-century America, when virtually any sleaze ball can (a) style himself (or herself) as "clergy," (b) sport ecclesiastical vesture, and (c) pass himself off as "Father" or "Bishop" or "Reverend," Catholics cannot seek relief from the law, which malignly ignores the usurpation of the Church's rights. We can, however, resist being duped into believing the cult masters have the slightest connection with the Roman Catholic Church.

They are not our pastors; consequently, we don't have to contribute to their support. They are not "the Lord's portion," for they have never been legitimately deputized to exercise the power of holy orders. They are marginalized laymen with souls disfigured by illicit orders, who live as inmates in an isolated parallel dimension, the name of which is Tradistan.

* We wonder whether these unprivileged ecclesiastical buccaneers realize how lucky they are to have morally depraved followers and fellow "clergy."  For instance, it's conceivable today that, even in the Novus Ordo, a priest who'd served 17 months in prison for manslaughter and subsequently lost a civil suit to a young woman he'd impregnated would be barred from exercising his ministry after all the publicity (click here). As an ex-con, he would've been obliged to find whatever employment he could—suitable or unsuitable —  in order to survive. But in degenerate Traddielandia, Dennis the Menace is still operating as a "clergyman" and today seems to be receiving invitations to spiritual retreats with his "clerical" colleagues.

** Little did Big Don know at the time that, in $GG's final days, there aren't pigeons nesting in the ramshackle cult center, but invading raccoons

57 comments:

  1. If I were a novus ordo Catholic I would agree with everything in your article, but as I hold the sede position I would say that the “Catholic Church” that you say would not even acknowledge a sede priest is not the Catholic Church and that the traditional position holds the Catholic faith correctly. While any sede priest including those at SGG will be the first to acknowledge they don’t have conventional authority, folks holding the sede position still believe that these sede priests are due the respect that is due a priest and that while acknowledging they don’t hold the same authority in the conventional sense sede parishioners will still look to their priest in the conventional sense and follow their lead.

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    1. Yes, we understand that sedes regard these men as deserving of the same respect as that owed to real Roman Catholic priests. (Although how anyone can respect the $GG crowd is beyond our powers of imagination.)

      If holding on to that fiction gives comfort, then fine. Self-deluision often helps us all get through rough spots. And to be fair, a few of the independent sedes actually do merit a high level of respect for their humility, their hard work, their selflessness, and their commitment to the cure of souls, so in some cases there's a solid reason to justify the play acting.

      Our point is that they cannot demand such respect nor can it be rendered on the basis of canon law or on the assumption they are bona-fide clergy. One may of course pretend they are "clergy," but in reality they will never be so. And since that's the case, the respect offered them is devalued because it is not founded on truth. Even if these men hold the Catholic faith, they are not in the Catholic Church, and therefore they cannot possibly be considered Catholic clergy.

      It would be far better if these men earned respect the old fashioned way, through good behavior, a record of genuine accomplishment, love for their fellow man, and commitment to self-sacrifice.

      All this is not to say we oppose the offering of the traditional Mass by vagi in Mass centers. By no means. Nor are we opposed to the wearing of proper vestments during the liturgy. It's just that, after the function, these men should get back into mufti and behave as the laymen with orders they are until they are called to offer the sacraments again. The laity should demand it. It's the adult thing to do.

      Delete
  2. Sayest thou these things of thy self or have others told it to thee (for publication) of us?

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    1. 2nd person plural pronouns and possessive are more correct, since we're the Readers.

      But, yes, the post came from our own editorial conferences. We're sure "Gene" could add much more insight. Maybe he'll pop in with his far richer understanding of the problem with trad "clergy."

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    2. If you followed the time sequence of moderated posts - you would see Anon 10:13 pm was addressed to Anon 9.11 pm and not to the "Reader(s)" with whom (all of them) we happen to agree.

      Delete
    3. Good point.

      Perhaps in the future, commenters should reference the date and time of the comment to which they are referring their remarks. 10:13 was not posted as a reply to 9:11 but rather as a comment, so we erred on the side of caution and treated it as unique.

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  3. Aside from these vultures that you identified for us, would you receive or recommend to someone to receive Holy Communion from good Catholic priests who are not recognized by Rome? If yes, then would you not concede that by virtue of the Miracle of Transubstantiation these men have Holy Orders, whether Rome puts the stamp of approval or not. Would this not place them above the "average bear"? If that be the case, then are they not entitled to some kind of respect for the mere fact they are serving God, by serving His children, without the comforts of Rome, and all her fringe benefits?
    I know there are men who are exploiting these horrible times, but aren’t there good men who are doing everything to serve God, by preserving the Faith?
    I know for me, that when I am riding into a bad part of town, that there is nothing more comforting then to see that radio car on patrol; and when one is going into that dreaded operation there is nothing more consoling than seeing that collar in the room.

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    1. Yes, many of us here would recommend receiving the sacraments from good laymen with valid but illicitly conferred holy orders who are independent of the historic, institutional church. And, yes, provided they are humble, hardworking, intelligent, self-sacrificing, well educated, kind, considerate, virtuous etc., they should win our respect — the kind we give to anyone with those characteristics. They do not, however, deserve respect as a Catholic clergyman, for they are not.

      If, when driving through a dangerous area, you knew the guys in the patrol car were only playing policeman and did not have full authority or proper training or weapons, your sense of ease would be diminished. Similarly with trad "clergy" decked out in clerical garb: how consoled would you be before that life-threatening medical procedure if you were not sure that the "collar's" orders were valid, that the oils had been validly confected, that he really knew what he was doing, — in short, that the absolution he gave was valid?

      Like fake cops in a fake cruiser, his presence would offer some relief, but there would still be nagging unease.

      If your conscience told you all Novus Ordite clergy were invalid, you would have a modicum of comfort, but you'd continue having many fears because down deep you know he's not real clergy in the strict sense, and you have no certain way of knowing he's any more of a priest than the Novus Ordite presbyter you rejected.

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    2. Deep down many sede’s believe that their understanding of the post VII era is the most probably explanation that allows things to “make sense” and with this many would consider trad priest to be Clergy as well as having supplied jurisdiction. Many sede views rely on various applications of epikeia. I would argue that many sedes hold that view with a clear conscience, but also admit that their position may be incorrect.

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    3. Agreed.

      The sedes at PL believe exactly as you do, with the exception of considering their "priest" to be Catholic clergy in the strict sense.

      They recognize that, outside the Church, he can only be a layman who has illicitly received valid Roman Catholic holy orders. Our colleagues have affirmed that their realistic understanding of the crisis doesn't diminish their traditional faith. Furthermore, like you they acknowledge that the whole of their position could be wrong with respect to N.O. clergy and sacraments. However, the one thing they know is 100% correct is that men without a commission from the Church, who have never been received by her, who willingly operate outside her and do not belong to her hierarchy cannot be considered her clergy — no matter how much they want it to be so.

      They know that if the Restoration came tomorrow, these men would have to apply to the Church for recognition as her clergy. And they know that most if not all, including the few decent ones, would be rejected as unfit for the Catholic clerical state.

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  4. Went into youtube looking to cancel subscriptions associated with MHT or SGG and saw that the latest 'Epekeya' channel post from MHT appears to have 500+ views.

    YT can be manipulated but part of my understanding includes the fact that TRRadio and MHT have teamed up some time ago - there will be a meeting of TRR members assuming there will be sufficient number willing to pay, in December of this year - the first members' meeting I recall as a former subscriber.

    Some people are paying attention to MHT - and Stephen Heiner is an entrepreneur - both DS and he are interested in monetizing anything that can be monetized - not that SGG is not - SGG clergy are also gaining from TRR as long as topics can be generated - about which I have some doubt.

    Stephen Heiner resonates with discussion of literature, art, music, architecture, and not only the brand of traditional Catholicism that is easily marketed to the 'masses.'

    I see that judgment can be made about what Kind of persons... are paying attention,

    Was one of them until recently - I have not gotten a name for use on this site yet but am the person with the moving plans and the protestant heritage (at least in recent generations).

    The interest I have in the subject matter of the site is strong. Of course I know how little I know, but I can always post about my own history - because it is of interest given that others exist who are at least somewhat similar to myself and over time, writing off MHT might be a mistake.

    I just want to put that thought out there not to debate about it.

    Of course I will be moving to the mainland but not into the immediate area of either SGG or MHT. I have two venues in mind and every single thing I learned at sggscandal about 'personalities' and their histories, as well as at this site, has helped me progress in sorting the gold from the dross.

    FSSP: I DO care about valid ordination - that will eliminate FSSP.

    Here is a link that may be of interest to some people - the 'controversy' is so recent it may not be though - :

    https://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2017/04/25/fssp-priest-interview-reveals-divisions-within-fraternity/

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  5. Definition of a cleric: "A person who has been legitimately received into the ranks of the clergy. By clergy in the strict sense is meant the entire ecclesiastical hierarchy. Consequently a cleric is one who belongs in some sense to the hierarchy.". (Fanning, W. (1908). Cleric. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.)

    To figure out if any given man is a cleric apply the definition to the facts, as one does with any term. Regarding the "traditional clergy," judge their claim to be members of the clerical state by applying this definition of what a cleric is to their claims.

    The key words of the above definition which needs to be most carefully thought about and applied to our current situation are "legitimately received."

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    1. Gene,

      To help me understand your point, if for the sake of argument the sede position were 100% correct would you still say that a trad priest could still not be a cleric?

      I ask because I am trying to separate and understand if your position is dependent or independent upon the validity of the sede position.

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    2. It's independent of the sedevacantist position. Whether or not one is a sedevacantist does not change the principles of this issue.

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    3. Yes, indeed. In fact, the sedes with all their pretended adherence to canon law should be the first to embrace "Gene's" point. (And our post, too.)

      However, just as the sede "bishops" refuse to wear mourning prelatical vesture appropriate to the sede vacante, opting instead for amaranthine finery, they ignore this truth as well.

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  6. Thank you for the clear, arguably-irrefutable article and for all the informative commentary. May the unutterably-slimy and incomprehensibly self-serving Triumvirate of the Dark receive their due, sooner rather than later. Godspeed :)

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  7. Perhaps DS's comment about DD's becoming a greeter at Wal-Mart provides insight into how qualified DD, DS and AC truly are to do anything of use in this world (excluding endlessly hoodwinking the perpetually brain-dead, of course). Why the lowest position at Wal-Mart, DS? Couldn't you and your pseudo-erudite buddies obtain high-level teaching positions anywhere in the world?

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    1. Great question for Big Don.

      In next week's post, you'll see why the Donster could never land a "high-level teaching position" in any real institution of higher learning.

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    2. Can you give a little hint?��

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    3. O.K. Just a little one.

      We'll examine a recent quotation from Tradzilla where he demonstrates an astounding want of learning that would disqualify him from a professoriate, even if he had earned advanced academic degrees from mainstream institutions of higher education.

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  8. Gene July 9, 2017 at 1:52 PM

    So Gene, if the word "legitimately" is applied in the strictest sense to anyone of these Trad priests, then they would all only be clerics for about 23 hours out of any day of the week?

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    1. Anon. July 10, 2:29 AM

      We'll let "Gene" try to figure out your question, but we point out that he wrote "legitimately received."

      Inasmuch as the Church has never accepted these illicitly ordained aliens as her clergy and owing to the fact that they don't belong to the hierarchy, they're not clerics for even one nanosecond of any day of the week.

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  9. Reader, I agree with your comment, and I am unsure of the anon. posters question.

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  10. Bottom Line! Who is the Law Giver? Rome? We walked out of there, so obviously we are not obeying what they are saying. We are only trying to follow what the Church has always taught throughout the ages.
    Not make it up, just to steady the course, until one day we are able to bring this tattered ship to the port of salvation.

    These days were all predicted, and in the end, if not shortened, even the elite will be deceived. So will Christ find the Faith when He returns, as He asked?


    I think we are in serious trouble.

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    1. The legislator was pre-Vatican II Rome.

      We understand your position. Several of us here hold the same thing. But that doesn't make these men clergy, no matter how much we would like them to be.

      We are in trouble, no doubt about that. But it doesn't help us to pretend that something objectively untrue is true. Our colleagues at PL are perfectly happy with their decision to seek the sacraments from the hands of laymen with illicit but valid holy orders because their informed consciences tell them that they cannot assist at N.O. Masses.

      The absence of authentic Catholic clergy provides all the more motivation to pray fervently for the Restoration.

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  11. So many are doing that through the Guild of St. Peter ad Vincula.

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  12. I understand your points about defining clergy in this strict sense, but I sincerely wonder where you think this "Roman Catholic Church" is. The very great majority of the "clerics" probably do not have valid orders, and most of them are heretics or even apostates, and so are not even Catholic, according to the thinking of most sedes. So going on about how sede sacramental ministers (is this your prefered phrase to cleric?) aren't strictly clergy comes off as petty. Almost nobody today could claim to be legitimate Roman Catholic clergy by your operational definition. Sounds like hairsplittibg about an obsalecent definition to me.

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    1. We refer to the historic, institutional Church.

      Our definition is based on Roman Catholic canonical doctrine — the rules of the system.
      Since validity of orders is assumed under the canonical privileges, and if the N.O. are not valid — but their invalidity has not been affirmed by the Church — then, yes, there are no Roman Catholic clergy today.

      Our preferred definition for sedes is "laymen with illicit Catholic holy orders."

      One may say that canon law doesn't operate today (many of us here affirm that), but its suspension, as it were, doesn't allow sedes to be called bona-fide Catholic clergy. We wouldn't call that hairsplitting; we call it being brutally realistic.

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  13. Most "sedes" are mistaken on this point. It has not been demonstrated that the bishops and priests with legitimate claims to apostolic succession are heretics. The case has been made, and a good case it is, against the papal claimants, not the bishops and priests under them.

    All Roman rite episcopal appointees pre-June 18, 1969 are validly consecrated bishops of the Roman rite. Unless they have lost their office by becoming public heretics, they retain their offices.

    Alll eastern rite bishops, even those appointed in our current times have valid episcopal orders, and unless one has become a public heretic, they are presumed to remain in their offices.

    These two groups of bishops who have kept the faith make up the remaining hierachy of the Church.

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  14. I don't understand the whole "do not criticize a religious." What if they are doing something wrong? And so many of them are? Don't criticize? Go about letting them do it? And why does this idea not apply to the clergy criticizing each other? Every month Don decides to put out a newsletter criticizing another group of religious. It's okay for him, but it's not okay for anyone else? Cekada puts out something all the time on his YouTube channels, His writings, etc. I don't get it. Don's group's have went off and said that CMRI is liberal. Don at one time accused Neville's Michigan group of stealing from him. The backstabbing among the groups and the criticizing religious is amongst themselves. This is a do as I say and not as I do?

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  15. I think that the Trads who are wearing the Clerical garb of a priest of pre -Vatican II today should be commended, for reminding people that Priests still exist. They are publicly claiming back what is theirs as Catholics and not Rome's.

    Today the supposed "Legit" clergy are sporting Polo Shirts, and Calvin Klein Jeans, and not the humbling raiment of the Church of Our Lord from a time long gone. As a matter of fact, I have not seen any priests walking about as they once did as defined by the Reader in "legit cleric clothing".

    Unfortunately those days are "Gone With The Wind" along with the culture it once dominated. All that we have to be concerned about, is holding onto the True Faith, until the dust settles.

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    1. Unfortunately, it is not theirs to claim. They are not members of Catholic clergy of any rite, so they are misrepresenting themselves and deceiving the laity.

      Perhaps they are a reminder of what Roman Catholics used to see, just as an actor arrayed in toga might represent how an ancient Roman citizen appeared in public life. But in the case of sedes, the sight provides no real comfort seeing that the impersonators are not members of the Roman Catholic Church. Quite the contrary. They are painful reminders of what does not exist today.

      As for the appearance of the sedes, we must point out that we've seen many who haven't the crisp, professional look of the priests we knew in the 1950s & '60s. Some are almost indistinguishable from the unkempt Novus Ordites we see around. Also, some of them regularly sport casual civilian clothing on vacation or when doing errands.

      As for your not seeing Novus Ordites walking around in what you call "legit clerical clothing," that's your experience only. We live in large cities, and we see them walking around frequently. Yes, they're often wearing those awful wash-'n'-wear "clerical shirts" with that cruddy little white tab in place of the Roman collar, but then so do the sedes.

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    2. Anon. 9:55 PM, a sibling of mine can personally vouch for what the Reader says: many sede “clergy” do NOT wear clerical garb when “off-duty.” Case in point: Antonius Balonius. Once, this sibling (who worked at an area “Apple” computer store) saw Checkie coming into the store with some youngsters in tow. He was dressed in worn-looking “civvies,” and those youngsters referred to him as “Uncle Tony.” Sorry to pop your bubble, Anon, but that’s how it was.

      Dannie, on the other hand, “plays the prelate” all the time – at least “for the studio audience.” (However, we suspect that, when he was “incognito” at The Bishop’s Lodge (and therefore out-of-view of that “studio audience”), he switched his Episcopal regalia for something more “casual.”) So, both he and Tony are, each in his own way, as phony as the proverbial three-dollar bill.

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    3. Now here you arrive at a major theological problem: if the Trad clergy of sedelandia are not clergy, and the Novus Ordo clergy are not "valid" then one might ask where is the Church ? The Church is Catholic (Universal) but also hierarchical. If you dismiss the clergy, what happens to the Church if all we have left are "laymen with valid orders" ?

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    4. Card. Gasparri in his treatise de Matrimonio makes an interesting observation which bears on this discussion (I paraphrase): if a Catholic layman receives valid orders outside the Church and returns to the Church he is had to be a layman still and free to marry. If a layman outside the Church receives valid orders and desires to enter the Church he is had to be a cleric and is not free to marry. Perhaps this sheds some light?

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    5. 7/12 2:05 PM

      Hmmmm. Very iInteresting.

      So, then, to apply the cardinal's distinction (as you paraphrase it), in this thread could we posit two classes of sede impostor "clergy": (1) those who were baptized into the Roman Catholic Church, and hence are Catholic laymen with valid orders received outside the Church and (2) those who were baptized into Sedelandia, and hence and laymen outside thje Church with valid orders?

      Taking "Gene's cutoff date of June 18, 1968 (see below 7/11 11:21 PM and above 7/11 7:22 PM) as a convenient dividing line — you may go back earlier if you will — could then we say any sede baptized before that date would be considered a Catholic laymen with valid orders received outside the Church who upon returning to the Church will be considered a layman still and free to marry?

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    6. Here I think you're skating on very thin ice:

      1/ Picking and choosing is what sedes do.

      2/ Picking and choosing is what Protestants do.

      3/ Catholics wait for the Church to decide all these issues.

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    7. 7/12 3:57

      Of course, you're 100% right: Catholics do wait for the Church's decision on everything — validity of orders, una-cum, vacancy of the Holy See, validity of the Mass, the hermeneutic of rupture of V2, etc.

      We offered a date only for the purpose of making a cognate distinction between the two classes of sede "clerical" impostors, which the cardinal's opinion suggested might exist: those who once belonged to the Catholic Church and those who never did.

      As you'll note, we phrased our reply as exploratory questions in response to a piece of information we received. Operating under the limited format of a quick reply to a very intelligent comment, we neglected to indicate we were only probing the here-and-now implications of the cardinal's observation. Our apologies.

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    8. In the light of the current crisis:

      >>>We offered a date only for the purpose of making a cognate distinction between the two classes of sede "clerical" impostors, which the cardinal's opinion suggested might exist: those who once belonged to the Catholic Church and those who never did.

      Your comment does suggest itself. At some point the hermeneutic of "dis"-continuity manifested itself - even Benedict XVI has suggested that on many occasions - but no juridical ecclesiastical decision says when exactly.

      You are right to speculate about what happens to those before (whatever the cut off date turns out to be) and those after.

      I think, though, looking at analogous times, say, the Arian crisis (which Ratzinger as Cardinal referenced as an appropriate period for comparison) that no cut off date will emerge when the crisis is resolved and all will agree to let bygones be bygones - that's sounds more like usual Church diplomacy - compromise. That's not likely in the polarized climate of today - Trads are divided and under Francesco so is the Novus Ordo like never before.

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    9. A very thoughtful analysis. We would hazard to add that letting bygones be bygones might not apply to all or most of the sede "clergy," in particular the "bishops." But, then, those die hards will never accept a Restoration that deprives them of their easy living. and freedom from accountability.

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    10. The cutoff date of June 18, 1968 only applies to certainty regarding Roman Rite bishops and priests, and regarding bishops the legitimate continuation of the apostolic succession in the Roman rite.

      Here is a list of all remaining and certainly valid Roman Rite bishops: http://tradcath.proboards.com/thread/737/remaining-roman-rite-bishops

      It certainly would not affect baptisms, so long as the essential Catholic rite is used. Even a layperson can perform a valid baptism.

      Also, take note that the radical changes inflicted by Paul VI on the Roman rite orders had no effect on the 23 eastern rites. Their lines are all unquestionably valid, and along with their episcopal orders, the apostolic succession is transmitted and retained by all of their bishops who have kept the Faith and have not lapsed into publicly heresy.

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    11. Anon 7/12 2:01PM: The hierachy of the Church is right where the books say they are. They are all lawfully appointed Catholic (not public heretics) bishops who have received the apostolic succession.

      This act of appointing would have been supplied by the Church to the antipope, as happened during the western schism.

      The common good, which is the principle which underlies supplied jurisdiction is and was served by all Roman Rite episcopal appointments prior to June 18, 1968 and all eastern rite episcopal appointments during this entire crisis.

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    12. Gene - well-reasoned but like (almost) every Trad you fall into the trap of your own making. Who says the post conciliar rite of episcopal consecration per se invalidates the lineages ? Who says that the bishops since 6/18/68 are not validly appointed ? Sure we all have questions, but ultimately these questions can only be decided by legitimate authority not by laymen in the pew (or out of it) ordained or not. I agree these questions need to be asked - unfortunately they cannot at this time be legitimately answered. I have the same questions - but I do not have the answers. The Church herself (if She ever gets her right mind back) has to answer these questions for us. All I think we can say is non possumus sequere.

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    13. You are right, only the legitimate authority can resolve this matter. In the meanwhile, if we are going to try to identify the Shepherds of the Church, we are forced to apply principles to figure this out.

      It's easy in some cases, tougher in many others. I realize this is all a matter of opinion, and it binds no one.

      If the Paul VI consecration rite is doubtfully valid, then there is a real question about whether such bishops feed the sheep. If they fail to feed the sheep, then the common good is not served, and jurisdiction would not be supplied to remedy the defect in their appointment.

      In my opinion, fwiw, at a very minimum, these post June 18, 1968 Roman Rite appointees are in a gray area that an needs authoritative decision about their orders and their claims to apostolic succession.

      Until the Church resolves this, I will have nothing to do with these men in so far as the use of their holy orders.

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    14. I think we are in practical agreement - it is an opinion, however, grave concerns exists over everything in the post-conciliar period because of the objective chaos that was produced. Even Novus Ordo authorities (since BXVI) admit there are major problems. If we have to take episcopal consecrations on a case by case basis as Archbishop Lefebvre argues in Open Letter to Confused Catholics, then we might as well throw them all out and go back to the starting-block. I prefer to wait for the dust to settle as (if history is anything to go by) it eventually will. I share your opinion as every sensible Trad should.

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    15. "Gene" 7:46 PM

      We understand the cutoff date doesn't affect the validity of baptism. We used it as an arbitrary marker of convenience to determine who was baptized formally into the Roman Catholic Church and who was baptized into another confession (sede-ism), to track what we perceived in the paraphrase of Gasparri (7/12 2:05) to be a distinction between laymen with orders who had been in the Catholic Church or and those with orders who were not.

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    16. Reader, thank you. Sorry for any confusion.

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    17. Anon 7/13, 10:34AM.

      In my opinion, until the authority resolves the matter of bishops in question, the post June 18, 1968 Roman Rite appointees should be treated provisionally as non-bishops, as there are serious grounds for doubt as to their holy orders.

      As stated, however, this only affects the Roman rite, the 23 eastern Catholic rites have unquestionably valid holy orders.

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    18. Gene 1:51 PM

      You're just the expert several of us here would like to consult about a concern. In our locale, there's a large Byzantine-rite church, the pastor of which is a former N.O. Latin-rite presbyter who transferred (or perhaps "converted" may be the more appropriate term) to the Eastern Rite with the blessing of the N.O. authorities. In our understanding, the Eastern Rites must accept N.O. holy orders as valid, and we were told the man in question was not re-ordained, even sub conditione. For those of us at PL who doubt the validity of N.O. orders, it would seem that assisting at his Mass is no better than assisting at any one of the diocesan Masses, apart from the greater dignity and solemnity of the ceremony.

      Now our primary question to you, since you are so patently very well informed on the subject, is, Do you know if this is a common practice? Also, what if some of these former N.O. Roman clergy are promoted to an Eastern Rite episcopate? Do any of those rites have safeguards to prevent the threat to validity?

      Any light you can shed will be appreciated.

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    19. To The Reader 4:38PM

      How will you determine if it is “the Church’s” decision on these things? One could argue the church has decided and says that are fine since they did it and if you agree with that you should be a Novus Ordo. If you believe that “the Church” was not actually the “the Church” and thus the errors were from outside of the church since those in the church were automatically excommunicated then you should probably be a sede. If you feel “the Church” made the errors and “the Church” will at some point rule on them i.e. “una-cum, vacancy of the Holy See, etc” how will you determine when that happens and if it is actually “the Church” ruling on it or something outside the church? I guess a third option would be if all of the errors and contradictions post VII don’t fall under the infallible protection and that a future council in an infallible manner could proclaim was is correct or not? I guess are you not picking and choosing no matter which option you do other than sticking with the Novus Ordo?

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    20. For most of us here — and we only speak for us — we will know the Church has been restored and hence capable of rendering such decisions when Rome elects a sovereign pontiff who repudiates V 2, restores the pre-Conciliar liturgy, and removes the heretics and deviants from the clergy.

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    21. Exactly ! To quote Our Lord: "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." Mt. vii:20

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    22. Reader 1:51PM:

      I agree with you, I would not go to the Divine Liturgy in question. There is no real difference between the cases of a Divine Liturgy said by a Paul VI rite priest and a traditional Roman Rite Mass said by a Paul VI rite priest (either ordained using the Paul VI rite or ordained by a bishop who was consecrated through that rite.)

      From my understanding this scenario that you are in is very rare. The eastern Catholics train and ordain their own men, and it is not common for a Roman Rite priest to switch to an eastern rite. I aware of some cases of certainly validly ordained Roman Rite priests who have switched to an eastern rite, but not any cases of a Paul VI priests who have switched, except for the one you mentioned.

      What is far more common, and I am personally aware of, are many cases of Roman RIte laymen who switch rites, obtain seminary training through the eastern rite, and then get ordained by the eastern rite bishop.

      I am certain that an eastern rite bishop will not conditionally ordain a Roman Rite priest. It's a sad reality, but so long as they accept the Vatican II claimants, logically they would have no ground to doubt the orders. Interestingly enough, this is also a problem in the SSPX which allows Novus Ordo presbyters into its ranks without conditionally ordaining them in many cases.

      Just as an FYI, while some eastern rite priests certainly still have the Faith, others are questionable, and some are far gone into Vatican II thinking and may be heretics.

      It's good to visit the Church alone and observe before bringing your family, especially children, making sure the situation is safe.

      From my experience, the Ukrainians in the US are for the most part safe, while the Ruthenians (who call themselves Byzantine) Maronites, and Armenians are some that I would be even more careful with. I have heard some good stories from Catholics that go to Melkite parishes.

      I do not have a lot of information on some of the others such as the Romanians and the Syro-Malabar priests who are also in the US.

      Also one last FYI, be aware that if you go to these parishes many customs are different, but these are not necessarily liberal innovations. It takes a little work to figure this all out, to separate legitimate eastern customs from "Novus Ordo" inspired innovations which have infected some eastern parishes or priests.

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    23. One point I missed, I am not aware of any cases of a Roman Rite priest (ordained validly or not) who has switched to an eastern rite, being elevated to the episcopacy of an eastern rite.

      Eastern rite Catholics elect their own bishops, and present their selections to the Pope, or in our case, the Antipope, who then confirm one of the candidates. They are not directly appointed by "Rome," like in the Roman Rite, so the eastern Patriarchs and synods of each rite when they decide who to elevate are not likely to choose anyone not from originally from their own rite, an "adoptee," when their own original priests are ready and willing, at least in my opinion.

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  16. The above post should have said, June 18, 1968, not 1969.

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  17. I think one could apply a host of dress codes to both laity and clergy. I think the problem arises when the clergy does not dress the role for the laity, as they instruct the laity to dress under the code of modesty. Once one takes on the role of the "law" no matter how low in the ranks, you better act, and look the role of command.

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