It is an irrepressible conflict between opposing and enduring forces. Seward
Most of you have read something about the impending showdown in Rome between Bergoglio and the conservatives. Mainstream-media journalists and Vaticanologists alike are openly discussing imminent schism as both sides play a high-stakes game of theological brinksmanship. With the latest squabble between Frankie and the Knights of Malta, the hostilities appear to be approaching the point of no return.
The Readers can imagine how the cult masters, especially Big Don, must fantasize about becoming beneficiaries of a post-confrontation exodus of clergy and laity. Their delusion may explain why Tradzilla hasn't yet announced the foundation of the new organization he promised last year: the Donster could be marking time until the shootout, expecting ousted conservatives to come flocking as soon as the gun-smoke clears. Beggar-man Dan, like a ravenous tramp loitering behind a stinky restaurant dumpster waiting for the help to empty the garbage, anticipates snarfing up whatever leavings the rector tosses out.
Three words about the cult masters' wild dream:
AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!
Not in a thousand years.
We don't mean schism won't occur: PL thinks it will. Bergie won't back down, not with the liberal, modernist media cheering him. And the conservatives won't blink either: if the Bergomeister triumphs, it's game-over.
No, what won't happen is the rush of fresh victims into the sleazy SW-Ohio-Brooksville cult. Here are three good reasons:
First, the leaders of the opposition to Frankie will either found their own organization or they'll join forces with the SSPX, either formally or informally. Why would any dissenting Novus-Ordo priest submit to the malformed cult kingpins when he can effectively fight back under savvy princes of the Church like the Vatican insider Cardinal Burke, who's earned several advanced degrees from both The Catholic University of America in D.C. and the Gregorian University in Rome, including a doctorate in canon law?
Second, the SW-Ohio-Brooksville brand has been completely trashed as a result of the 2009 SGG School Scandal. Whereas traditional Catholics used to believe the lie that SGG-MHT was the Cadillac of Sedelandia, TradWorld today regards its marque like the Chevrolet Corvair, "the One-Car Accident"— Unsafe at Any Speed. Going on eight years now, bloggers like PL have exposed the ignorance, hypocrisy, greed, and pitiful education of the cult's undistinguished nomenklatura. There's no recovery from that. Absolutely none. The West Chester/Brooksville sect is toast.
Most East-Coast trads with their mental faculties still intact consider SGG "tainted meat." Amid a deluge of eyewitness reports of maniacal Swampland mind-control practices, esteem for the Donster, once the "Great Man of Tradistan," is tanking fast. By backing "One Hand" in 2009, the now-cornered Flushing Rat made himself fair game for those who knew he was NOT the world-class scholar-churchman he tried to make us all believe. Consequently, no newcomer to Traddielandia will want to associate with the scumbo cult "clergy" or the degenerate, mullet-topped trailer trash who support them.
Third, the una-cum shibboleth* will prevent the Vatican Ephraimites from crossing over to the sede Galaadites. Actually, very few will exit. Most will stay put after the big gunfight, awaiting a judicial declaration of heresy and the ensuing, historically documented "discipline to be followed when the Pope ceases from his office" (click here for a short Novus-Ordite discussion of the problem, the content of which most of you know by heart after Salza and Siscoe took Tony Baloney to school).
As for any quick-on-the-draw early leavers, they won't want to ride with the una-cum-embargo-as-dogma loonies from the SW Ohio-Swampland McChurch anyway. Why should they go to the theological fringe when there's a simpler, perfectly Catholic competing opinion? It's possible, then, that any trigger-happy precursors to the Restoration will head straight to the SSPX until the declaratory sentence against Frankie is issued. Moreover, depending on how things work out, by that time, the society may have deftly maneuvered its Trojan horse inside the institutional conciliar Church, so nobody may need to leave at all.
Whichever scenario turns out to be true, it's fair to assume none of the resistance inside the Novus Ordo will be joining Tradzilla's sectarian hole-in-the-head gang. Only the same ol' no-accounts already in Tradistan will be around for Big Don's invitation, and most of them won't bother to RSVP. So just the morbidly dependent losers plumb weak north of the ears will show up to pay the Donster his propers — and membership fees.
If the conservative opposition does win the upcoming face-off on the streets of ecclesiological Laredo, the victors will NEVER ask the marginalized cult masters or their lame-brained sidekicks to join them in restoring the Church. Maybe they'll allow some Tradistani desperadoes to return as the laymen they in fact are, but they'll never be permitted to exercise any kind of ministry: What with all the reports of decay and vermin at cult centers, they're unfit to apply for an unpaid janitor-trainee internship in a country parish. Besides, they'll be too busy making reparation for all the harm they've caused.
Should it all play out as expected, maybe we might be seeing both the end of Bergie's noxious reign AND the final days of Tradistan. Then at long last there'll be law and order in the West.
* As Catholic traditionalists we would naturally prefer "scibboleth," but the conventionally accepted English spelling of the word's figurative sense comes from the Authorized King James Version, not the Douay.
"Why would any dissenting Novus-Ordo priest submit to the malformed cult kingpins when he can effectively fight back under savvy princes of the Church like the Vatican insider Cardinal Burke, who's earned several advanced degrees from both The Catholic University of America in D.C. and the Gregorian University in Rome, including a doctorate in canon law?"
ReplyDeleteMaybe because they realize that Vatican II is a fraud, and those degrees combined with invalid orders, can't make them priests. Bp Sanborn can. V2 degrees in canon law and other disciplines are so much garbage based on the false ecclesiology of Vatican II. Maybe this will be the start of an imperfect general council, after enough realize sedevacantism is true. Then we can get a successor to Pope Pius. XII
When will you get it? Sanborn isn't the Catholic Church. He changes church teachings and teaches his opinions as dogma.
DeleteI'm not in favor of the novus ordo, but in no sense would I call Sanborn to be the remanent of the True Faith.
Specifically, what Church teachings has he changed?
DeleteFor one thing, when has the Church officially recognized the Sede Vacante he presumes to exist since P12? Do you have a current postage stamp to confirm that the state obtains?
DeleteIt's just his opinion, and not even a theological opinion, in the conventional understanding of the term.
A council does not need to recognize SVism at all. If they embrace the theory of John of St, Thomas, they can declare Francis a heretic and depose him. No one needs that idiot Sanborn to restore the Church. In Europe, they think he's a joke.
Delete"Sanborn isn't the Catholic Church."
DeleteThen who is?
Sedevacantism is more than an opinion. It is the only Catholic position.
DeleteOtherwise, you would have to deny the Principle of Non-Contradiction. The Church has always taught ecumenism as heresy. I defy you to read Mortalium Animos of Pope Pius XI next to Ut Unam Sint of Wotyla. If Pius was right Wotyla is wrong. If Wotyla was right Pius was wrong. They can't both be right. At least one must be teaching error. However, the pope cannot sanction evil practices even when not speaking infallibly. (See, e.g., Van Noort).
Bp. Sanborn is not changing any Church teaching. He is applying Catholic principles to the current situation. It is the Vatican 2 cult that changes Church teaching. Has Bp. Sanborn denied the Real Presence or Baptism of Desire? Those would be examples of changing Church teaching
Sorry, but it is not the only Catholic position. The opinion of John of St. Thomas employs Catholic principles too and is equally compelling. The cult masters act as if there were nothing else to challenge the SV opinion. They're dead wrong. And they're dead wrong to present SVism as the sole mind of the Church on the matter.
DeleteSorry, but it's the sound mind of a rational human. When a "pope" gives "communion" to adulterers he's not Catholic. John of St. Thomas' opinion was by and large rejected. Had he seen Bergoglio he would have changed his mind!!!
DeletePresenting sedevacantism as a solution is not changing Church teaching.
You need to do some reading about that presumed "rejection" of John of St. Thomas.
DeleteAny of you Readers is a CPA?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you ask?
DeleteJust curious. I don't think any of you are because in another post you mentioned going to some CPA and another consultant, but if any of you were, I'm sure you would've said that one of you is a CPA and so on.
DeleteThis blog is the work of only one man.
DeleteApparenrly you haven't seen the "about" section on the right side of the website, which says:
Delete"We're actually many people who have read WORK OF HUMAN HANDS. We've gathered all the chaff into one spot so that traditional Catholics won't waste their hard-earned money or their time on this book. In 2011, we began reporting in earnest on the terrible state of clerical formation and the ignorance of certain clergy. More recently we've been scrutinizing the validity of "One Hand Dan's" orders in light of the 9 priests' 1990 letter to him."
Anon. 8:27 would like to believe it's by one man, but we've got a staff here and contributors from many parts of the world. One person does do the editing to impart a uniformity of tone.
Delete8:27, who is no doubt a shill for the cult masters, doesn't want to face the fact they there are many who are working toward the collapse of the West Chester-Brooksville cult cabal. If 8:27 is one of the cult masters himself, then he'll know that much of our info comes from people still inside his cult. We just rewrite to protect identities.
I wonder if Sanborn, Dolan and Cekada really and truly think that a great number of clergy would suddenly fall into their laps if there is a schism. After 40 years of the same old same old you would think they would recognize that no great numbers will accept them. I think that makes them the greedy vipers that PL has called them. The only other option is that they are nuts, certifiable bonkers. I have to wonder if they think of themselves that way or how they perceive themselves.
ReplyDeleteComing from a former cult member, these groups think they are the only ones right. The world is horrible, the other trad groups are liberal, and "the reason why others find them offensive and cultish is because they are so holy." Seriously, that is almost a direct quote from a parishioner.
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:33 pm wrote: "The world is horrible."
DeleteThis is a running theme in all the ones who complain about SGG, they complain that they are taught that the world is, uh, BAD, as if this were revolutionary or outlandish, when the fact is that that the world is yes bad, is rooted in the Bible and Catholicism.
We think the writer may have been referring to the cults' tendencies to encourage their followers to live in sectarian cocoons, going out solely to earn money to give back to the cult masters.
DeleteSt. John wrote, "I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil." The great disconnect is that the dangers of the world that we should avoid — vanity, love of riches, bad example, worldly individuals, modes of living opposed to Christian principles, and threats — are precisely the evils we find in the cult clergy and their key supporters. The very men and women who should witness that religion has an effect on moral life act as if they had no religion of their own.
Yes, I am the writer of that comment. The world IS bad; I agree, but you still have to live in the world, you should just not be of the world. This phony setup that they have going on in Brooksville and West Chester is ridiculous. They live in a compound, and in at least one of the places, everyone in the parish knows many of the families either work for the main families or go into the convent/seminary. If this works to save your soul, great. Yet, from what I saw, it was not the case of drawing people to God, but instead people leading double lives. I'm all for avoiding distractions to your main goal, and I do believe in minding your own business. Yet, I don't think keeping quiet and letting more people being subjected to these people is a good idea either.
DeleteWe are 100% in agreement with you.
DeleteMoral theologians teach that "Christians must live in the world without being of the world. All have the obligation to edify their fellowman by the example of a good life, fully in conformity to the norms of the Gospel....The plight of the world, understood in a Christian sense, does not prevent anyone from giving effective collaboration to projects for the common welfare and cultural progress; the philosophy of the world itself is useful for the achievement of those ends." (Dom Manise).
Look at the behavior of the cults and you'll find all the world's scandals packed into their tiny compounds. Only this time, they're sanctioned as "holy."
Catholics are obligated to flee these places.
The traddie cults' implicit teaching and actual practice vis-à-vis the world is perverse because it suggests an extreme, absolutely antagonistic dualism between the world and God. It smacks of Manichæism; it obscures the truth of the Incarnation, whereby God redeemed the world in spite of its sin.
DeleteWe all understand why they set up such a radical opposition between their private CultWorld and the world: control of minds and assets. (We know they don't really believe in the duality because (1) their benefactors are given a pass to enjoy the world's pleasures to the fullest , while being held up to others as paragons of Catholic virtue, and (2) they make sure they get all the creature comforts the world affords.)
Their delusion may explain why Tradzilla hasn't yet announced the foundation of the new organization he promised last year: the Donster could be marking time until the shootout, expecting ousted conservatives to come flocking as soon as the gun-smoke clears.
ReplyDeleteWatching video of one of the Donster's seminarians, published in October 2016, the seminarian notes that he recently joined "Bishop Sanborn's newly founded clerical institute" a month earlier. That led me to believe this organization was in fact formed and publicized.
video referenced above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7rkafiZYwk&t=627s
DeleteThanks for the link. You're no doubt right in your inference. It looks like Big Don made his announcement to his (LOL) "seminarians" and maybe to some low-life sede "priests" and "bishops." In May 2016, he wrote:
Delete"Shortly I will found an organization of traditional Catholic priests. This is something which has been sorely lacking for decades, and accordingly is something which I have desired to do for a long time."
We had supposed there would have been a lot of hoopla and fanfare at the moment of the foundation. Apparently, he kept it on the Q.T. He probably wants to fly under the radar now that he's under so much scrutiny. Also, he might be getting ready for the big move once Junior gets his miter.
We had to laugh when Scut the Prefect intimated that there would be a flood of "vocations." The latest news is that they lost at least one of the newest entrants. There'll be more on the way out.
In reference to Siscoe and Salza, a member of Suscipe Domino has been methodically exposing their shoddy work, one point at a time in this thread:
ReplyDeleteSIscoe and Salza: Collection of Posts Demolishing Their Credibility:
http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=15724.0
Thanks, Gene. Intresting stuff. But no matter what their faults, they skewered Phony Tony.
DeleteIn addition to Nazianen's excellent refutation and exposure of Siscoe and Salza's incompetency and shoddiness, Fr. Paul Kramer has been exposing them for a long time on his Facebook page.
DeleteIt took a little time, but these guys are being exposed for the charletans they are.
I know you are not keen on Fr. Cekada, but the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
Very well put. Our only point is that they skewered Checkie and took him out of the debate. That leaves it to the better informed and truly able to continue the dispute at a much higher level. We'll continue our observer's status with far greater interest now that the peanut gallery has been closed. We're sure the Fr. Kramers and John Dalys welcome a forum free from the noise of the malformed cult masters.
DeleteNot so sure that sede methodically exposed anything. He or she seems to think that the canonists or theologian who agree with him/her and disagree with S&S are 'holy writ' (used blasphemously to describe an opinion of St Thomas Aquinas on some matter) when in fact there are conflicting opinions on topics like whether Pope Honorius was a heretic (Adrian VI thought so and so did the authors). Authorities also disagree on heretical Popes. That S&S took one authority over others, doesn't make for refutation. If that is pointed out to that sede (as I did once) there's spluttering abuse. Some of the claims of mistakes and distortion are just not corrrect. No variations of translation made by the authors altered the meaning. The changes seem stylistic, as best I could see. Most there ignore her S&S obsession (thirty threads at least).
ReplyDeleteVery good points for everyone to consider. Trads find it hard to accept that there are competing opinions on many issues within the Church.
DeleteIt would be nice if TradWorld could assemble a theologically literate, sophisticated "truth squad" to weigh the various claims and counterclaims on this issue. The panel would be neutral, it's only object being to assess the strength of each charge. We'd be willing to join such a group as the Latin consultant. We strongly dislike the SW-OH-Brooksville cultists, but that wouldn't interfere with our ability to remain above the fray. If the panel ruled a criticism worthy of consideration, we'd abide by that even if the ruling supported the cult. (There will always be plenty of indisputable stuff to use against them.)
This same group might also be the germ of clearinghouse for all theological questions, since it's obvious the laity cannot depend upon the malformed "clergy" for reliable answers.
Shortly after TOFP appeared, Suscipe Domine forum had a mini invasion of roughly ten or more sedevacantists. One 'Nazianzen' posted supposed refutations of this or that part of the book, something close to thirty threads now.
DeleteThe problem is that refutation faults the authors for taking one position, supported by orthodox canonists and theologians, over other positions. That they might take one of the Five Opinions that Cardinal St Robert Bellarmine discounted, does not mean TOFP is false or shoddy. These astro-turfers also failed to show how they can judge the Chair of Peter to be vacant. The authors offer their criticisms of sedevacantism, in particular Fr Cekada, originator of the non una cum heresy, and in chapter 20 'We Recognize and Resist', close to the end, they sum up and defend the SSPX position.
A board of sedevacantist experts would be problematic, given how, for example, Fr Jenkins and the well formed SSPV congregation (http://www.congregationofstpiusv.com/, Fr Jenkins has a channel on Youtube, What Do Catholics Believe, which should show Fr Tony of the non una cum heresy and SGG that rubbishing opponents uncharitably doesn't aid the faith) might be wary of other less well formed sedevacantists who might red light them for various reasons. Different sedevacantist chapels and groups do not get on well. Hard question.
We were actually thinking about a panel of well-read, educated lay people, not the malformed "clergy." If the referee concept of academic writing were used, the panel would only comment on the aptness of critiques. Thus, for instance, it would just tell people that Big Don's and Checkie's una cum nonsense is not even a theological opinion: it's just an opinion proposed by renegade "clerics," without any real training.
DeleteFollow Fr. Kramer's Facebook page, it's some of the best written theology I have seen in a long while.
DeleteI would also urge you to read some of John Daly's excellent and scholarly works, especially his lengthy tract exposing the work of Michael Davies. It's free in electronic form and found here: http://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/michael-davies-evaluation.pdf
Thanks for the tip. Mr. Daly is certainly a major player, and far more reliable than the Tradistani clergy.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow Fr Checkie dirtied his bib in supporting the judicial execution of Terri Schiavo. Pro Life people remember that. (how did I delete my comment? reposted it if the editors don't mind)
ReplyDeleteNo, we don't mind. And your comment is perfectly apt. Checkie's weighing in on the case was the beginning of the end of the SW Ohio cult. The 2009 SGG School Scandal was the straw that broke the camel's back.
DeletePrayerful January 24, 2017 at 10:48 AM
ReplyDeleteWrote:
"Anyhow Fr Checkie dirtied his bib in supporting the judicial execution of Terri Schiavo."
He's not the only one to dirty a bib. Let's not forget Bp. Pivarunas who condoned a Heart transplant for one of his parishioners. I think that is called murder in the first too!
Lesson learned! "Two wrongs don't make a right!"
Unfortunately for Traddie-ville most of it is filled with opinionated wrongs.
Yes, there can be major doubts whether the source donor is always indubitably dead (medical advances have found people presumed vegetative by traditional medical metrics to be capable of communication, occasionally even recovery, and some who were to be donors ended up by God's Grace surviving and living for years after). However, I wouldn't blame the SGG/MHT crew for a CMRI decision. SGG/MHT don't get on with CMRI. It does bring up an issue where important parishioners in some chapels seem able to avail of de-facto Indults on clothing or moral issues. This blog gave a few notable egregious instances (pornography and underage drinking I think) of that with SGG chapel and school.
ReplyDeleteAnonymousJanuary 25, 2017 at 12:33 PM
ReplyDeleteWrote:
"...However, I wouldn't blame the SGG/MHT crew for a CMRI decision..."
Personally I am not blaming anyone, I'm merely pointing out that TRADDIE LAND is filled with more opinionated wrongs than rights.
Well said, 1:09 PM. That's the heart of the problem. And if you've got some $$$, then you get the benefit of the wrong opinions.
DeleteBurke and his V2 friends need to receive conditional ordination (all 7 orders or ordination) and conditional consecration from a valid Catholic Bishop.
ReplyDeleteThey aren't true shepherds having received doubtful orders from doubtful "bishops"
If this were to happen I would welcome these gentlemen as they hold an actual office.
He'll have to look someplace other than Tradistan for a valid bishop.
DeleteFriends in Europe say this isn't hard to do, and Burke may even have received valid conditional orders already. One well-placed informant told us when we were in Rome that back in the '60s, wise heads saw what was coming so they made provision for valid lineages to survive. (He told us we'd be surprised at the "suits" who were really bishops. Apparently, it's fairly well known though not spoken about.)
It wasn't uncommon in the old days for bishops to informally conditionally ordain and consecrate each other: the fear of invalidity always existed, especially after the enlightenment and the efforts of the modernists to penetrate the Church. Cardinal Burke, with his deep network of attachments among the conservative élite among the Roman nobility, may have already secured the requisite conditional orders. And our acquaintance assured us he wasn't the only one.
I have thought about this before being possible but I hope they have pics & certificates.
DeleteIt would be very difficult for a Novus Ordo prelate to just suddenly blurt out in an interview
"Oh yeah by the way I received valid ordination & consecration a few years ago"
It would be different if traditional orders were prerequisite in their sect.
I have often wondered if Fr.Ratzinger received conditional traditional consecration from a valid bishop?Little actions like that can truly piss off rabid anti-catholics factions within the Vatican.
DeleteThe last thing those folks would want is a valid Catholic bishop celebrating a traditional holy sacrifice of the mass at St.Peter's.
These men are very discreet. They don't need to broadcast their orders. They're in wait of the true Restoration. Their Masses, if they celebrate them, are in the remotest, private chapels.
DeleteI understand what you're saying 100%.
DeleteMy comment was inferring the possibility of Fr.Ratzinger being conditionally traditionally consecrated and the wrong crew caught wind of his "secret"