Saturday, January 23, 2016

DISORDERED ORDO I (part a)


There's no thief like a bad book. Italian Proverb

Editor's note: Be warned — today's post is a little lengthy and a bit technical. Ever since we laid bare numerous disgraceful blunders in Dannie's ORDO 2016, our European and Latin American readers have asked for in-depth evidence of outright incapacity. They want to warn the public against this made-in-the-USA stain on the reputation of traditional Catholicism. Additionally, several American laypersons have requested more details about the ordo's failures in order to confront their "priests" and demand a change. Whether you're a liturgist or not, the information we present will confirm everyone's suspicion that the SW Ohio cult is an utter sham.

In keeping with our December promise, today we launch a new 2016 monthly series exposing the mistakes in Dannie's ORDO 2016 (which curiously is no longer available on the cult's website*). Insofar as our two posts last month were devoted to awful blunders in Latin, we thought today's subject should, for a welcome change, focus on the editorial incompetence manifest in Wee Dan's Iliad of errors. Owing to the complexity of explaining the ineptitude we've uncovered, we decided to break "Disordered Ordo I" into two parts, the second to appear next week.

As you enjoy this series throughout the year, you'll come to agree that whoever put this mess together did so without any thought: he just went through the motions without the light of a human intellect to guide him. What a rough adolescence this cretin must have had as he tearfully endured his siblings' insults, his parents' angry disappointment, his teachers' contempt, and his schoolmates' taunts. No wonder he fled to Tradistan USA: he's a perfect match for all the other clerical misfits who suffer from similar irremediable deficits.

The trouble with letting malformed knuckle-draggers compile an ordo is they have no understanding of what the job entails. Providing correct dates, liturgical colors and ranks, special notes for the day, and accurate missal and breviary settings represents only half of a competent compiler-editor's work. The remainder consists in assuring that the product is internally consistent and user friendly so as to facilitate a priest's duty to give due praise to God in accordance with the mind of the Church.

For someone possessing intelligence and an advanced education, the first half is the easier because most of what's required is available in pre-Vatican II sources. All that's needed is a command of Latin, a working knowledge of the rules, some reference books, discipline, and the ability to transcribe with precision. The second part is really more complex, though less labor intensive. It demands attention to detail, a tidy mind, and a sympathetic understanding of the end-user's needs. We've already had a glimpse of the SGG compiler's inability to carry out his obligations in his first set of tasks. Today and next week we take a long look at the clerical moron's unfitness to meet the mandates of the second.

SIX ABBREVIATIONS IN SEARCH OF A REFERENCE

1. Scattered over the SGG text entries is the glyph + abbreviation ℞ br.  Strangely (or not so strangely, when you know these cult simpletons), we didn't find it explained on the abbreviations page at the beginning. You see, it's not a question of whether we can figure out easily enough what " ℞ br." stands for. In this unimaginatively edited waste of time and Gerties' money, we'd wager that almost every abbreviation it registers — or doesn't register — can be effortlessly divined. Our point here is that if the letter-like symbol ℞ is listed, as it indeed is, then br. should also appear somewhere on the abbreviations page if only for the sake of accuracy, consistency, and completeness. (The witless compiler, after all, explained "L br." under "L," so why not explain ℞ br.?)
As a snide aside, we note that maybe if Checkie hadn't wasted money on an unneeded old-new organ, the cult might have been able to afford a font with the conventional response (responsory, responsoriumsign.  Then they wouldn't have had to resort to the ridiculous "Prescription Take" (recipe) symbol we see.
2. Any compiler, even one so deficient as this sub-educated loser, must in practice employ the abbreviations he explains, if he wants to appear to have his wits about him. Not so with Dannie's ORDO 2016. On the abbreviations page, we find tt for the frequently used word tantum (="only"), but in the text we found the word spelled out at least at least 62 times (!!), and not once did we come across a single tt. Why have an abbreviations page at all, if you're not going to take advantage of its content?

3. On three occasions, we noted the abbreviation m.v. signaling an altered strophe in a hymn. Again, it's no problem figuring out what's meant, but if you include an entry explaining the abbreviation "mtv." for the third-verse change in the hymn Iste Confessor, then the same should be done with m.v., supposing, that is, you're gifted with an organized mind.
We're going off the track a bit here, but our liturgically minded followers in Europe and Latin America may rightly ask why an ordo produced by SGG, the home of over-the-top liturgical extravaganzas, doesn't follow tradition in the case of the proper hymn strophes for the feasts of the Finding and the Exaltation of the Holy Cross. Most of the old ordines in our collection (and we possess exemplars dating back to the late 18th century) specify kneeling at the modified strophe (as the Roman Breviary directs). 
Surely, at May 2 the following miracle of economy found in some last-century American ordines, viz., O Crux, ave ... flexis genibus, radiates a liturgical sensitivity and an editorial acuity far superior to the prolix and pedestrian "In Hymn. Vexilla Regis m.v. O Crux ... Paschale quæ fers gaudium" of the source from which Dannie's troubled boy borrowed! More significantly, we should ask why Dannie would forego the prestige of the following hyper-correct liturgical reminder printed in the 1954 Cincinnati ordo, which we know he had available: 
"O Crux, ave ...flexis cum Choro genib, a Celebrte ad scamnum per tot stropham."
Isn't it a cult meme that SGG's the heir to the archdiocese's traditions? Why didn't Dirtbag Dan seek for treasures at home? Maybe the SGG cult crew just forgot they were supposed to be the last place in Christendom to practice all the ceremonies. (It's easy to do, you know, when there's no reality behind your claims.)
4, 5, and 6.  Despite the relatively frequent occurrence throughout the unsightly text of the abbreviations Antt., Pss(.), and capp., they do not figure in the list of abbreviations, whereas  "rel.," which we found only once (p. 14), has a place. Now even if "rel." isn't a hapax legomenon, wouldn't it be competent editorial practice to spell out in full any word so infrequently used rather than abbreviate it in such a way as to require its annotation on a master list? (And if the answer is a brassy NO!, then why didn't Dannie's pinhead compiler explicate the "rat." that appears on p. 8 at Jan. 11?)

PERIOD FAULT

Heavy abbreviation was a practical necessity insofar as the 20th-century ordines we've seen were usually printed as 32mo volumes (roughly 3" x 5"). And despite the larger size of today's traditional ordines, abbreviation is still necessary. It's worth recalling that, in the good ol' days before V II, an ordo didn't explain most of its repeated abbreviations. It didn't need to. Then the clergy could read Latin fluently and thus fill in the missing letters. Indeed, unexplained abbreviations for obvious words also appeared in the detailed rubrical notes and fore matter written in extended prose.

Inasmuch as the competent old compilers had sense, and the well-formed users of yesteryear possessed a knowledge of Latin, a period after every abbreviated word was an unnecessary threat to readability (and the demands of space). Thus when you read many an ordo from the '20's, 30's, '40's, and '50's, you'll note that periods are infrequent (used mainly to separate sections) or sometimes they're almost non-existent (as in the 1954 Cincinnati edition). The result is a clean, user-friendly text without the distracting visual clutter that excessive pointing would bring to highly abbreviated copy.

Dannie's ORDO 2016 is, as you'd expect, missing this editorial virtue. Almost every abbreviation is followed by a period, and periods also signal the section endings. Coupled with all the commas, semi-colons, and colons, the crowded pages look almost as if they had been printed in braille. Every ill-designed leaf strains the eye, making it difficult to navigate the content, thereby increasing exponentially the chances of misinterpretation (= liturgical error).  The lamentable fact that Dannie's challenged compiler didn't notice the unsightliness or its effect on readability is another token of this bird-brain's woeful preparation for Catholic prime time.

Gargantuan, however, as the above faults are, they're dwarfed by the editorial failures we'll discuss next week, where in one note we demonstrate how punctuation and bad Latin produce rubrical nonsense. So mark your calendars for an "appointment post" on January 30! See you then. In the meantime,

STARVE THE INCOMPETENT BEAST!

* Late in the first week of January, we noticed the cult masters had taken down the ORDO 2016 page on SGGResources.org — less than two weeks following our second scathing exposure of  its gross blunders in Latin (click here and here to review the posts). One implausible reason for the disappearance might be that they sold (or gave away) all their copies. However, we can hardly believe that. First, if the supply had been exhausted, the cult masters would have kept the page up as a token of their liturgical preëminence in Sedelandia and simply entered a message like "OUT OF STOCK" or "SOLD OUT."

Second, from what we understand, the cult does its own printing on an expensive copier they bought a few years ago. It then wouldn't take much effort to trumpet "MORE ON THE WAY" and then run off additional copies.  (The obviously amateur product is only held together with spiral coil binding, so even if the copier, like the organ, broke down, they could run off more copies at the local FedEx office print and ship center.)

Therefore, there's got to be a more serious reason for the SGG cult masters to forego so much prestige. We certainly didn't shame them into it, nor did the threat of this year-long series induce them to take that piece of trash off the market. These guys are shameless as well as arrogant, and we're under no illusions we can force them to behave well. Maybe one of the rector's creatures told the Donster to get Dannie to pull that embarrassment off the market to minimize the damage to the cult cartel's already greatly diminished standing in TradWorld.

If that's true, maybe the rector can get Dannie to refund the money to those who have already purchased a copy of ORDO 2016. It's the right thing to do.


55 comments:

  1. If they're smart,they sold out of first edition and will not reprint this until mistakes are corrected by someone with knowledge.

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    1. Well it is a nice thought to think that they sold out. However, knowing the dashing duo I can assure you they were compelled to pull it down by Bishop Sanborn. He, like they already had a far superior Ordo coming out of England then the misfits could ever offer.

      The best part of this site is to show the people, "all that glitters is not gold." So Beware!

      Thank you Pistrina Liturgica for all your efforts to keep us informed.

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    2. Correcting the mistakes may take quite a long time, even if they could find someone with the knowledge!

      We wish there were some way we could let Catholics know just how many errors of all kinds we have found -- and we're still not finished. Quite literally, Dannie's ORDO 2016 is riddled with mistakes.

      For our posts, we can only choose and explain a few of the most egregious mistakes. Many more will go unreported owing to space limitations.

      Dannie's disgraceful publication, a mixture of outrageous pomposity and shockingly low standards, should convince TradWorld that Dannie's cult is far removed from authentic Catholic culture. They're just playing Church (and not doing a very good job of it either).

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  2. Gentlemen, if you will excuse the off topic comment I thought you may be interested in this information

    http://www.vregisjournal.blogspot.de/2015/10/an-interview-with-pope-michael-i.html

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    1. Thank you, but, no, we're not interested in that information.

      Delete
  3. "What a rough adolescence this cretin must have had as he tearfully endured his siblings' insults, his parents' angry disappointment, his teachers' contempt, and his schoolmates' taunts."

    How lurid. This is so graphic that it certainly looks autobiographical. I think we were just privileged to see a glimpse into the soul of the tortured author of this blog.

    I'm sorry if you had a difficult childhood, but what you're doing now isn't going to help matters.

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    1. To Anon. Jan. 25, 7:36 AM: It is YOUR comment, numbskull, that is autobiographical. You are the typical brain-dead cultie who ignores the topic being discussed, then goes off on a warped tangent, fabricating some imagined fault, and then expounds on it. It’s the same tired old “ad hominem” tactic that we’ve seen so many times from Dannie’s hapless apologists. If you can’t offer anything intelligent or pertinent to counter the article’s argument, then crawl back into your wormhole and SHUT UP.

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    2. Anon. Jan 25, 7:36 AM

      We're afraid you've missed the mark in your amateur diagnosis, and from your tone, we fear we've opened up some very old wounds in your own psyche. No wonder you're a cultist!

      Had we not revived so many of your heretofore repressed, painful memories, you might have asked, How is it that the Readers, who have met with admiration and positive reinforcement from infancy and whose lives have traced an unbroken arc of academic success, possess such deep insight into the idiotic compiler of Dannie's ORDO 2016?

      The answer's simple. As winners in life, we're morbidly curious about life's colossal losers. Since we've never experienced failure, we want to understand its origins. When we were confronted with the constellation of stupidities and blunders in Dannie's ORDO 2016, we naturally considered their psychogenesis. Exposure was not enough. The compiler had to be someone for whom error must be second nature, for no person with a normal emotional profile could have been responsible for so much aggressive idiocy.

      Therefore, although we have no personal analogue of our own with failure so dramatic as Dannie's ORDO 2016, we invoked our considerable powers of discernment to imagine what this unfortunate's early experiences were like. Once we achieved the insight, we could understand why he dwells in Tradistan. Birds of a feather, you know.

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    3. Winners in life? Never experienced failure? Didn't you want to be a priest and were in the seminary even but FAILED to become one?

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    4. You have been seriously misinformed. Don't listen to the cult masters' fictions.

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    5. Then can you please set us straight in this matter.

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    6. We just did. The cult masters have fed you a line. Don't believe them.

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    7. Why do they say you tried to become a priest if it's not true?

      Delete
  4. I don't agree with this blog 40% of the time.However,it's (blog) very entertaining and well written.One of the few blogs I read on a regular basis.Pope Michael is an interesting figure.His videos,like this blog,is entertaining.His comments are charitable and helpful.Pope Michael has stated he'd step down if another conclave was held and he wasn't elected.Also,I have experienced failure in life.Believe it or not,failure is a good lesson.I would not be in decent shape today if it wasn't for previous failures.Pax Domini sit semper voviscum. (To everyone on this blog I wish you all the best)

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    1. You may have experienced failure, but your testimony suggests you have overcome it and are now successful. That's not the case with the compiler of Dannie's disastrous ORDO 2016. He is a congenital failure.

      Remember that a passable ordo can be compiled based on exemplars from the last century. Only a habitual, unregenerate loser could start with material already correct and butcher it so badly. Moreover, only a habitual failure could fail to see the howlers we've pointed out.

      We'd really love to learn the identity of the rattlebrained booby who produced Dannie's ORDO 2016. Trad Nation deserves to know who it is so they can keep him far from their chapels. Can you imagine how incompetently he must administer the sacraments?

      As Americans, we Readers are very ashamed that this disgrace came from our shores. We bet the highly educated Latin Americans and Europeans are rolling on the floor with laughter at American ineptitude. We'd also bet that the SSPX now knows for sure that they've got ZERO competition from the SW Ohio cult. (And the N.O. now has more ammunition to scare their followers away from Tradition.)

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  5. On a different subject,what does the 1917 code of canon law say on seminary formation?Is it a full 7 years?How can cmri ordain men with only 3 years.We bet this only causes grave scandal.How can one give sound advice in Sacrament of penance,etc.It is very grave.In Christ,a very concerned family

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    1. According to Bouscaren, c. 1365, 1, required at least 2 years in the study of rational philosophy and kindred branches (native language, Latin, Greek, profane history, mathematics, & natural sciences); c. 1365, 2, required a theology course of at least 4 years (dogmatic & moral theology, Sacred Scripture, ecclesiastical history, canon law, sacred eloquence, & ecclesiastical chant + lectures in pastoral theology and practical exercises in teaching catechism, hearing confessions, visiting the sick, and assisting the dying.

      Three years is definitely not enough. It is a grave scandal. These "priests" are not qualified.

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    2. The underlying presumption of the canon is "approved" training, which is not happening in any of the current situations. The number of years, the books used, etc., will never compensate for the key ingredient which is the approval of the Church.

      Another way of saying this is, "A seminary is not a seminary unless the Church says its a seminary."

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    3. Wonderfully stated, Gene! You're 100% right.

      That's why we've always bristled when these sects call their pathetic clergy mills a "seminary." At best they resemble the sham vocational schools-for-profit you see advertised on the many crummy re-run digital channels we have nowadays.

      Actually, these weird, sectarian training centers are worse than the awful charter schools that've sprung up. At least those places are subject to some adult oversight, and once in a while state governments close them down.

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    4. To anonymous who started this thread, I suggest you look back in previous threads on this site, somewhere around 2011, and you'll see that this author promoted the idea of seminarians being ordained after about 2.5-3 years being taught online by lay teachers and working at a day job.

      Yes, you should be concerned.

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    5. That's right: we did. We're glad you remembered. But you forgot to add that we noted the limitations

      These men would be sacrament machines only, and they would be advertised as such. None of this lying nonsense that the completers would be equal to the priests of the past.

      We still believe in the project, and we hope to bring it to fruition. Simplex priests who know their limitations would be a major improvement in TradNation where buffoons masquerade as the heirs of tradition.

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    6. "awful charter schools that've sprung up. ... state governments close them down."

      Those places get closed down because they don't spend enough time teaching the children how to put a condom on a cucumber.

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    7. You must need be able to read the newspapers. These dumps are shuttered because they fail to perform academically against professionally validated standards.

      If by some miracle we could assemble a properly qualified board of visitors for these traddie vocational scams, they'd be closed down in a New-York minute.

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    8. The government doesn't want any competition to its brainwashing child internment camps that they call "schools". You must have read too many newspapers, and too few exposés of these nightmarish institutions where children are taught sexual perversions, cultural marxism and moral relativism. Not to speak of the drugs, crime, promiscuity and outright violence that run rampant in them as well. Children are at risk and are victimized in these places on every possible level.

      Public schools are the places that should be shut down, not traditional Catholic schools.

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    9. Any non-performing school should be closed down, especially these traddie "seminaries," that are Catholic in name only. In truth, they're cultish monstrosities.

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  6. I am a former cult member. I will have to say that you don't realize the extent of the problems until you are out of it. The Sgg scandal so many years ago was swept under the rug by these men, and anyone who knew the truth was blamed to be a trouble maker or have mental problems. These two churches (Cincinnati and Brooksville) are extreme in their culture, yet do not apply the extremeness to themselves or certain parishioners. Exceptions for even basic Catholic principles tend to be made based on who you are or how much you give, for example, Dolan eating meat during Lent. Would a normal parishioner be told that was acceptable because he was on vacation or traveling for business? The fact that these priests were able to slander parishioners during the SGG scandal, but anyone who spoke out against them were malicious and intent on being vicious was just plain wrong.

    If this is what they consider Catholic, I worry about the next generation and what they are teaching at the seminary. The next generation of priests will have the same scandalous ideas of these priests. The next generation of parishioners will think the behavior of these parishes are normal. May God help us all, if these men continue passing their form of "Catholicism" to the next generations.

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    1. I thought one was only prohibited from eating meat during Lent on days of abstinence (?) Are you saying for priests/ bishops the discipline is different?

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    2. A couple years ago, Travelin' Dan was in Mexico during Lent, where the discipline is relaxed. He took advantage of the difference from US practice and chowed down at an Argentine-style beef palace on what he described as "copious quantities of meat" while reminding the Gerties of their sparse Lenten fare. He could have provided a stellar model of behavior to the Mexican priests who accompanied him on this feast but apparently opted out.

      Anon Jan 27 4:24 PM is right about all the exceptions for favorites and big donors. In MI, denim was banned but the womenfolk of a benefactor could sport their denim outfits with impunit

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    3. I have heard even the priests or seminarians get the exceptions of watching sports because sports are so big in their native countries, even though Sanborn always talks about how sports lead to vanity and such. So, I don't think it is just Dolan who gives exceptions to cultural differences.

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    4. We agree. We heard that one of the benefactors was allowed a big-screen TV to watch football on Sundays because that was how he relaxed.

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  7. Wanted to leave this at your colleague Lay Pulpit, but non "anon" posting there. It's
    for the SGG parishioners to avoid the crying room - how to quiet a crying baby in 5 seconds:
    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/news/4-minute-video-dr-hamilton-demonstrates-the-hold-how-to-calm-a-crying-baby/#.Vqj9pfkrJUQ

    Maybe some medieval Tradistan coats could be made and stored in the room:

    http://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultural/C042_Warm.htm

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    1. Thank you for the link. We're sure many loving mothers and fathers at cult central will be grateful for the video this winter. The "hold" may save them from jeopardizing their infant's health in what's been reported as unheated cry-room.

      Although the real solution would be to get the entire family out of the cult forever, your link is the next best thing. We wondered why this isn't available on SGG Resources, but then we realized it's free, so there was no money to be made. Besides, we suspect the cult masters may enjoy seeing the womenfolk and their bairns shivering in misery.

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    2. I have heard the moms at MHT have to go to the bathroom to nurse their babies or sit in their cars. Is this true? Do they have a place for moms? I guess the opposite would be true in Florida, so are the moms forced to sit in the heat with their children?

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    3. Great question. Maybe someone will answer.

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    4. No, no cry room. Yes, a chair in the bathroom for nursing moms, and I'm not sure the bathroom is air conditioned. Both odd facts since this chapel was designed and built, and most of the families are large and have nursing mothers.

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    5. Thanks for the information. We think it shows you where the swampland clergy's and religious' priorities lie. They are so self-absorbed in their own comfort that they can't take mothers and their children into consideration. We'll bet the clergy's and nuns' bathrooms have AC -- and probably padded toilet seats.

      What's really odd is that these lay folks don't get the message that they don't count, except for their donations. (Perhaps the big donor families have special facilities for themselves that no one else is aware of.) We'll wager that some of you baby boomers out there in cyberspace remember how nice the cry rooms were in churches built in the 1950s. But that's a tradition the cult masters are happy to snub.

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  8. AnonJanuary 29, 2016 at 3:06 PM
    The location of the bathrooms and that a woman has to feed a child in one is just odd. If one has ever visited this chapel, one would see that the bathroom location is difficult for elderly to have access, especially on a rainy day. You have to leave the building and walk around outside to be able to use the facilities. Yet, this doesn't surprise me with Sanborn's stance on anyone using the bathroom during services. In one sermon (search sermons online), he states that in his day, children didn't even know a bathroom existed at his church. I guess, in his day, elderly people didn't use bathrooms either.

    I'm not sure about the ladies' facilities, but I highly doubt either facility is air conditioned because the bathroom doors were kept open.

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  9. There is a quote that you can tell a great deal about a society on the way they treat the young, elderly, and helpless. The same is true about a church. A church that has a disregard for life (Schivo), priests who put themselves above those Who they are suppose to be a shepherd to, school scandals like those at SGG, etc. will have a lot to answer to in the end. May Our Lord have pity on them

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    1. May these scumbag clergy taste divine justice.

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    2. Such scumbag clergy are treasuring up for themselves wrath against the day of wrath. They obviously think highly of themselves (or their intellect) but are so foolish in this respect. Ah! the folly of the sinner.

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    3. They've risked everything for a belief without substance. If they'd only read us with a open heart, they'd come to realize that they're a confederacy of malformed dunces. That wouldn't effect their misplaced self-esteem, but they just might treat the laity who feed them with a little more respect.

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    4. They don't need to treat the laity with respect. They hold the sacraments hostage. Being that it has been shown that the laity still give, even though they are treated the way they are, why would the cult masters feel the need for change? Too many parishioners find this behavior acceptable and the ones who question it are too scared to lose the sacraments. There are many "whispers" among the parishioners but at the end of the whispers is always, "BUT, we have the Mass. We aren't here for anything else. I don't agree with the priests. Yes, I think the funds are being used inappropriately. Yes, I think the priests have a superior attitude. Yes, they favor the big donors and have a buddy-buddy relationship with them. No, I wouldn't go here if there were more choices, but right now, I am only here for the Mass."

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    5. "we have the Mass. We aren't here for anything else. I don't agree with the priests. Yes, I think the funds are being used inappropriately. Yes, I think the priests have a superior attitude. Yes, they favor the big donors and have a buddy-buddy relationship with them. No, I wouldn't go here if there were more choices, but right now, I am only here for the Mass."

      This is a true Catholic attitude. The issues you mentioned, even if true, are insignificant in comparison with the importance and value of attending Mass.

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    6. Anon. Jan 39 11:094 PM

      It is absolutely not the "true Catholic attitude," and you are to be reprobated for advancing such scandal. The true Catholic attitude would be to denounce this wickedness before legitimate ecclesiastical authority. Since we no longer have it, the laity must take control of the clergy until the Restoration.

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    7. These people want to leave, but in some of these cult centers, there are no other alternatives. Cincinnati is the exception, not the rule, for alternatives. They absolutely desire someone else to come in and offer Mass other than Dolan and Cekada. Yes, the most important thing to a Catholic is their faith, which is exactly why a true Catholic would demand a true Catholic leader and accept nothing less.

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    8. My dearest Reader.

      Yes, a true Catholic would denounce improper behavior to the proper authority, but that's beside the point. And you are correct that no one can do that now anyway. My point was that the value of the Mass is far greater than any human problems in a parish.

      Maybe I'm wrong, and even deserve to be "reprobated". If so, please explain to me how someone is better off missing out on the infinite value of the Mass on account of some human problems that are outside his control anyway.

      Talk about lacking any spirit of Faith. The carnal Jews look positively contemplative in comparison with you.

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    9. In Cincinnati and Brooksville, the people have alternative Mass centers so they miss nothing. At other chapels, they can take charge and give these priests an ultimatum. If they refuse to cooperate, the people can get another priest. But under no circumstances should they submit to spiritual blackmail with the Mass as a club to force the laity into submission.

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  11. The use of correct terms will help clear at least some of the confusion. None of the "traditional priests" are clerics, therefore they cannot be referred to as clergy. These bishops and priests enjoy the same status in the Church in the same as the laity.

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    1. You're correct, of course. We reluctantly use these terms out of practical necessity, *ratione accommodationis*, as it were. We usually try to put them within quotation marks but sometimes neglect the nicety. We'll have to put our thinking caps on and come up with more suitable substitutes. In the meantime, we'll try to be consistent with quotation marks.

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    2. As I see it, the incorrect identification of the so called "traditional clergy" is really the root of the problem. Bad training, ordos, abuses of money, etc., are all merely the symptoms of the laity buying into a pseudo-hierarchy.

      In the 70's and 80's when Catholics resisted the Conciliar church, they were initially led by their diocesan priests and those of religious orders. Those priests had a real status in the Church, as they were sent and given a mission.

      Catholics just seemed to uncritically buy into the idea that new bishops/priests could be trained and ordained, and they would through his process have the same status as the other priests discussed above. That was a rash assumption, based on on what I think was a high degree of ignorance. No one ever bothered to write a reasonable defense of these novelties, it was all just taken for granted due to the "emergency."

      These assumptions are now so ingrained in so many Catholics, that getting them to see the reality of our situation is now a massive uphill battle. The effect of this is that it has allowed "fiefdoms" within the Church depending on which pseudo-hierarchy one has fallen in with. The dangers associated with such "fiefdoms" vary depending only on the good behavior and restraint of the so called "bishops and clergy" that lead these pour souls.

      Take some time to think about all of the incorrect terms and practices affiliated with "traditionalism." There are a lot and far beyond the incorrect use of the term, "clergy." I am only drawing attention to this, because once Catholics grasp that these men are not clerics, and by that in no way connected to the lawful hierachy, eyes will begin open to the other problems.

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    3. Very well argued. Sometimes for the sake of brevity or convenience, we ourselves fall prey to a linguistic inaccuracy that inadvertently perpetrates the myth that these men have some legitimate claim to the titles they inappropriately arrogate to themselves. For our part, we'll endeavor to avoid these misleading shortcuts in the future, thanks to your welcome caution.

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  12. Why did you put the word "emergency" in quotes? Don't you think the Church is in a state of emergency?

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  13. So,I ask this in sincere humility and in no way am I being hateful.
    Since the priest's ordained before July 1968 are dying off rapidly,do we sit at home and wait for the restoration? (I am not a theologian and need answer's )

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