Things are seldom what they seem./ Skim milk masquerades as cream. Gilbert
The beginning of Paschaltide is a fitting occasion to remind traditional Catholics still hoodwinked by the cult masters of Tradistan that deliverance is possible. All they need do is to break the emotional restraints that enslave them.
But that's easier said than done. Walking out of a Tradistani cult center over wasteful spending, "clerical" ignorance, managerial incompetence, or ill treatment of children doesn't last in all cases. Too often, outraged trads who ride out of the cult mounted on a moral high horse come back whimpering like whipped mutts, head hung low, more than willing to lick the hand that beat them.
If asked by astonished relatives and friends why they returned to the sham bishops' clutches, they answer with a not-too-convincing, high-pitched whine, "For the sacraments, the s-a-c-r-a-m-e-n-t-s!" But that doesn't explain their self-abasing behavior. There must be something deeper — and simpler behind it all. Rallying around the sacraments is one of those noble-sounding excuses weaklings offer to explain a repressed conscience. They pass themselves off as making a personal sacrifice for a greater good, as though abetting counterfeit "clergy" can be justified in the name of Catholic piety.
When we hear a prodigal son or daughter of the cult self-deceivingly protest, "I loathe Sinburn [or "One-Hand Dan"]. I only go only for the Mass," we smile inside, knowing it's an autogenic-training mantra meant to silence the inner voice, numb the sensus catholicus, and crush the superego. It's no different from the therapeutic formulas "my right arm is heavy" or "my solar plexus is warm." Passive concentration on the theme of "offering it up" makes it easy to avoid ditching a cult center for good.
Truth to tell, it's an addiction, not the sacraments, that brings leavers back to $GG or MHT, for the sacraments are available at many area chapels. (And the chances of their validity are much higher at some of the rival locations.) These ethical cowards are habituated to the Big Show, the dolly-dress-up, the staring blank faces, the slack jaws with bad teeth, and the carb-loaded, hillbilly chow blanketed with microwaved Cheez Whiz.
To break the dependency forever, cult victims must actively focus on verbal formulas designed to wake them up to the Tradistani imitation prelates' non-clerical state. Only when Catholics confess that these men are masquerading as Roman Catholic bishops will they be able to declare, "I must leave the cult to regain the true faith."
To get to that stage, however, cult addicts will have to repeat to themselves some precise affirmations, which, once thoroughly internalized, will make the sorry excuse "I only go there for the Mass" sound pitifully hollow. In our therapeutic work with cult-dependent Catholics, we have found four highly effective statements that recovering victims may recite in order to prepare to leave the bogus bishops and never return.
The trick is to master the statements one-by-one and then say all four in sequence until an overwhelming urge to encounter the real faith overtakes the will. Depending on how ingrained the bad habit of cult attendance is, the process takes anywhere from one to four weeks. However, there is a caveat: the subject must have an intact brain and an adult's sense of right and wrong, which is often not the case with life-long cultlings.
Fortunately, there are fewer and fewer of these spiritual two-headed calves, which means most folks stand a good chance of escape if they're willing to work at it. The beauty of the therapy is that you don't need much by way of equipment — just access to PL to remind you of the concrete arguments behind each statement.
Enough, then, with all this theorizing, and let's get the best of Tradistan's victims started on the road to a cult-free life.
STANDARD FORMULA # 1
As you sit in a squalid "bishop"-led cult center and see one or more of these pretenders decked out in pontificals, relax, close your eyes, breathe deeply, and say to yourself over and over for 30 seconds, "These dripping bags of pus have no right to dress like Roman Catholic bishops — they are wolfish laymen in a legitimate pastor's clothing." Practice this every time you lay eyes on one of these gussied-up religious impersonators. All the necessary background can be found in our post of Feb. 11, 2017 (here). After a little practice, soon you'll recoil at the sight of these fakes' sporting episcopal finery.
STANDARD FORMULA # 2
Now you're ready for the next step whenever you hear one of these puke buckets addressed as "Your Excellency" or see the most "The Most Reverend" prefixed to their infamous names. Again, calm down, breathe in slowly, and with eyes shut say, again and again for 30 seconds, "These gobs of spit have no right to official ecclesiastical titles of honor — they are malformed lay trash who don't deserve to be called 'Mister.'" Our post of Oct. 1, 2016 (here), gives all the reasons behind this formula.
STANDARD FORMULA # 3
When you hear one of these charlatans preach about your obligation to support the clergy, then, using the same preparatory techniques and methodology above, repeat to yourself, "These disenfranchised cretins have no canonical rights — they are grasping lay wannabes dubiously ordained outside the Roman Catholic Church with no claim to clerical privilege." For the detailed reasons supporting this formula, see our post of July 8, 2017 (here).
STANDARD FORMULA # 4
The next time you spy the coat of arms of one of the ersatz bishops, follow the usual procedure we've just outlined and recite, "These scofflaw, illicitly 'consecrated' toilet fish are not entitled to bear ecclesiastical arms of the Roman Catholic Church — they are lay usurpers of others' legislated privilege." Full details are available in our post of March 10, 2018 (here).
After a short time, you'll be ready to rattle off with ease all four statements in sequence. Do so for 60 seconds every time you set foot in a cult center or catch sight of one of the humbugs. We promise that once you're "woke" you'll be itching to pack up and get out of the world of make-believe Catholicism.
Some of you, however, may require a little more assurance about the inauthenticity of the mountebanks who've made a wreck of the lives of the faithful. Insofar as these churchly wooden nickels would not accept the judgment of the Vatican establishment, we looked elsewhere for something more neutral. We didn't consider U.S. civil society, because here anybody can self-declare to be a clergyman, buy clerical apparel, and be accepted by the gullible, no questions asked. We then thought of England where, under common law, Roman Catholic clergy who convert to Anglicanism are (or at least were) not obligated to be re-ordained.
Traditional Catholics may view Anglicans as heretics, but their ecclesiology teaches that they form a branch of the Catholic Church. Accordingly, for our purpose today, Church of England (CofE) practice tells us how a possibly sympathetic, organized religious body recognized by its nation's laws and governed by the monarch, often through Parliament and the Prime Minister, regards these wandering "clergy. " If the Tradistanis had any legitimacy at all, then certainly the "Big Tent" CofE, which boasts female bishops, would have no trouble with these lost boys, not only the "wandering bishops" but also the vagus "priests." Right? So we put the question to a source with deep expertise in these matters. Here's the (slightly edited) reply:
The answer is a big round ‘No’. Old Catholics, in the vagantes sense, have never been received in their orders by the CofE. Whilst the CofE, or parts of it to be precise, would say they believe these people have orders, they would argue they cannot exercise them legitimately. In the CofE, licensing – which could broadly translate as faculties – is paramount. However friendly clergy of the CofE will be to vagantes, they would not let them loose on a congregation without a license. If the American lot ever approached the CofE for regularization, they would be regarded as irregular and subject to ordination. The bottom line is the Thucites would never be considered other than laymen.Need we say more? The cult masters are not the "real thing" by any sane person's yardstick.
START PRACTICING. YOU'RE A MONTH OR LESS AWAY FROM TEARING OFF THEIR MASKS AND GETTING CLEAN.
For the most part your info on the C of E’s practice towards the Vagantes is accurate. Of course there are exceptions. Mathew’s Prince Bishop was even involved in the consecration of +Hiram Hulse for Cuba. There were several vicars consecrated by +Banks. A rector or curate of S. Gabriel’s Pimlico was a former Old Catholic. A former Mariavite was an Episcopal priest somewhere out west.
ReplyDelete++AHM himself lies under an imposing monument in a lovely Anglican churchyard. The rector there allowed him to wear his choir robes in church.
The C of E was pleased to receive the Dutch touch from the source of most vagantes. Most of the lines of the continuing churches derive in at least part from Old Catholic sources.
The relationship between the vagantes and the C of E was a bit more complicated than your comments would indicate.
Yes, we're sure the situation gets more complicated at the granular level, especially with the Old Catholics. But as for the American sedes, it seems from your information that they would not be admitted without re-ordination, as our source says.
DeleteIronic that your critique of people going somewhere for the "s-a-c-r-a-m-e-n-t-s" despite serious other problems actually applies to you people of this blog. You promote going to Novus Ordo Eastern rites for the Sacraments DESPITE their problem of being heretics, which is actually the TOP moral consideration for staying away from true Sacraments. The sedes don't have this problem, they have the integral Faith.
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic Church in history saw lots of problems with clergy just as you perceive in MHT or SGG, yet the Church never said to stay away from their Sacraments for such problems. Yes, they said stay away if you doubt validity, but your personal doubt applies to you alone, as it doesn't establish objective doubt for any one else as much as you would like it to.
Finally, here is the teaching that shows you are promoting mortal sin by promoting going to Novus Ordo Eastern rites, since St. Alphonsus said,
"Since heresy, and any kind of infidelity, is a mortal sin, they also sin mortally who expose themselves to its danger, whether by their association, or by listening to preaching, or by their reading."
Who, pray, declared the Eastern Rites heretical? Is that your judgment? And if so, on whose authority do you base it?
DeleteGo read the second-to-last chapter of Liberalism is a Sin, where it says reason enlightened by faith is an authority to make a judgment, and that those who deny that and say they have to wait for the Church to make the judgment have fallen into a "species of brutal and satanic Jansenism." It's was the Church has always done, the big example is when Catholics in league with St. Athanasius completely spurned the valid Sacraments of any priest who was under a Bishop infected with Arianism....even before the Church made it's canonical judgment. The Eastern Rites are Novus Ordo and have bought into ecumenism and the general apostasy. Just go and look at their web sites.
DeleteHardly an authoritative document.
DeleteWild accusations, yet no proof.
DeleteNow you are saying that a formal decision by the "Sacred Congregation of the Index" is not authoritative?
DeleteThe Secretary to the Congregation of the Index did not say Sardà y Salvany's book was authoritative. He issued a statement that ruled in Salvany's favor against Pazos, which also said of the author, "D. Felix Sarda merits great praise for his exposition and defense of the sound doctrine therein set forth with solidity, order and lucidity, and without personal offense to anyone."
DeleteApart from that, what Salvany's volume has to do with our question to the commenter about supporting his/her wild assertion that the Eastern rites are heretical escapes us. Absent a declaration from competent ecclesiastical authority, it is a mere private (and erroneous) opinion to which no one need assent.
Right! The individuals I was talking about were highly educated and independent minded. I’m not so sure the same applies to Sedes. I’m not sure that they’d be received as altar boys.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, Buona Pasqua!
You're so right. The Old Catholics among the Anglicans are an entirely different breed of cat from the malformed American sedes. In fact, for the most part, homegrown Anglican bishops enjoy an educational and cultural level far superior to the wannabe "bishops" of the U.S.A.
DeleteBuona Pasqua anche a te!
Anglicans are now the measure of Catholicity by which all traditional clerics are judged?
ReplyDeleteWhile not agreeing with this blog 50% of the time,I still respect the talent and intelligence of your staff.
With that said,your insinuation that Anglicans are sound pillars of doctrine & orthodoxy is completely absurd.
We were referring to their educational and cultural attainments, not their orthodoxy. Those are entirely separate matters.
DeleteIf they persist in Anglicanism, I have to question their intelligence.
DeleteThey could be book smart with multiple degrees but if they can read the new testament & walk away not realizing the Catholic faith is a living embodiment of these texts,they may be an educated fool.
You forget Anglicans believe they are part of the Catholic Church and heirs to tradition, in much the same way the sedes do.
DeleteOf course, both groups are wrong: you and we know the sedes and Anglicans stand outside the Church no matter what they believe. The only difference is that the Anglicans with their superior educational backgrounds should be able to discern that truth more readily than can the malformed sedes.
Anglicans murdered Catholics wholesale including 2 Saints.
DeleteI will agree to disagree with your assessment.
God bless.
We're not trying to justify the Reformation in England. We're just saying the Anglican bishops are educationally superior to the grossly malformed sede trash. Just click on the bios of the current Anglican incumbents to see what we mean.
DeleteI fully understand what you are saying.
DeleteOnce again,I will agree to disagree as an educated apostate is still an apostate.
What a Catch 22 we have here.
DeleteThe Anglicans on one hand appear to have all the benefits of a far superior classic education without the Faith. While on the other hand, most of the Trads, who are not home schooled, are the product of a dummy downed American school system, except they have the Faith.
Can you imagine if the Anglicans accepted the True Faith. What a wonderful educated and well formed Church we would have again.
Well let's hope and pray that the glory of the Church be restored, as God intended and not man.
Some Anglicans, the Anglo-Catholics, do hold the true faith. The problem is with their clergy's orders — just like most of the Trads!
DeleteThuc Lefevbre and Mendez were ordained/consecrated with traditional Holy Orders in the Catholic Church.
DeleteThuc had permission to ordain/consecrate using his own discretion from 2 Pope's.
The Anglicans should receive valid holy orders & practice the Saurm Rite and wait until we have a Catholic Pope and hierarchy if they want to apart of the true faith.
He had permission to consecrate bishops to fill vacant sees in Vietnam, not consecrate Palmarian sectarians and vagrants.
DeleteWas Bp.Thuc's Indult to ordain & consecrate ever officially revoked?
Delete“Anglicans stand outside the Church no matter what they believe.”
ReplyDeleteJust what do you mean by the Church? Do you mean the Vatican operated Church at Rome? Econe? Istanbul?Where would you suggest a highly educated Anglican to go? To whom should Sister Monica Joan go? The Ordinariate?
We mean the Catholic Church. Where that is now, we don't exactly know. For some of us, it's East.
DeleteHas anyone here seen the lavish Holy Week ceremonies celebrated in the so called pre-1955 rite all over the globe, most notoriously by the ICRSS in Florence and the FSSP's parish in Rome; after the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei issued a decree permitting aforementioned rites according to the older practice, the ritus antiquissimus?
ReplyDeleteLooks like Babylon has fallen at last, or at least its last allusions of grandeur: They are not longer keepers of the Holy (Week) Grail, if they ever where.
Leave now, while you still can. And go to the professionals.
The 'Professionals' who ordained by Novus Ordo
Delete"Bishops" who ignore
"Pre-1950 rubrics" 51 weeks out the Year?
Woo-Hoo the Novus Ordo pretends to be Catholic 4 days a year!!
The times, they are a-changin'.
DeleteWho knows? This year Holy Week; in a few years to come, the entire calendar.
Whatever the timetable, changes like this will wipe out the cults. And wait until people see how much better the pros are with the liturgy than the malformed street performers of Tradistan. That group in Rome is spot on. We've seen 'em. No monsters on that altar.
Where has "Ecclesia Dei" been since 1988?
Delete30 years after being established,Ecclesia Dei groups pretend to be Catholic 4 days a year & suddenly they are pillars of tradition?
For starters they don't have traditional Catholic holy orders i.e. Novus Ordo "bishops."
You can have the Novus Ordo noahide cult.
God bless.
If the issue was just the mass, then this would be significant. Paul VI significantly altered the holy order rites, especially the consecration rite of bishops. Until the Church settles the matter as to whether the 1968 Paul VI is valid, many Catholics will play it safe and stay away.
DeleteTho only Catholics who hold the true Faith are ROMAN Catholics, of the Latin and Easter rites, NOT Anglo-Catholics.
ReplyDeleteThen you've never met a real Anglo-Catholic, who will affirm everything Catholics do, including the primacy of Peter. They are few and far between, but they exist. Their situation is very much like that of he Trads. Many have stayed away from Rome for the same reasons that the Trads do.
Delete"We've seen 'em. No monsters on that altar."
ReplyDeleteWhat great news, Reader! No monsters on their altars! Superb! About time the cults were made redundant! So, tell me Reader, is the FSSP non-una cum, because I've discovered that the trad Caths whom attend SGG,CMRI and MHT Mass centers are doing so to avoid una cum Masses?
Una-cum is a fiction made up by ecclesiastical entrepreneurs who want to keep their victims from leaving.
DeleteReader,
DeleteThank you for your comment. I think you'll find that the una cum problem is a big issue with the laity whom attend the CMRI, SGG, MHT and sede Independents. If there weren't stark differences they'd be attending the SSPX, for example. I can assure you that the FSSP is the LAST place they'd even dream of going, so you're barking up the wrong tree. The so-called Indult given by Frank won't affect the sede clergy in the slightest. The consistent message takeaway message is: Nothing that Frankie does or says has any force of law behind it. Once you understand the sede thesis, you'll appreciate that your comments do not make sense.
No, we do understand the sede thesis. And we understand that if a priest believes the See of Peter and the diocesan see are vacant, he will and should in accordance with the rubrics omit the names the incumbents.
DeleteWe also understand that some of the laity may believe the same and for that reason refuse to attend the Mass of a priest who mentions the names of the incumbents during the canon.
But we know that many of the folks who attend the cult chapels would not let it bother them if the cult masters didn't invoke the una-cum bogey man to keep them where they are. The cult masters sense that if they didn't have this fiction to scare their people, many would leave for the SSPX or elsewhere.
Pace, but if the permission to celebrate the old rite is extended to the FSSP everywhere,
the sede clergy will not be able to compete against men who are part of the system and don't turn every sermon into a polemic about something that isn't a doctrine or dogma of the Church.
Reader - Again, thank you for your reply.
DeleteIt's not just the una cum phrase being uttered during the recital of the Te Igitur prayer of the Canon of the Mass that's the problem that prevents sedes from co-offering FSSP Masses or attending their public ceremonies. It's the fact that they are in communion on an ongoing and everyday basis with a false pope/anti-pope/false Church. It's believed their (FSSP) ordinations are now questionable due to being conferred by Novus Ordo "bishops." The una cum problem is merely a manifestation of a far more extensive overall impediment preventing sedes from having anything to do with attending Masses and public ceremonies of the FSSP AND SSPX. It's the unCatholic nature of their setups that's the real problem.
The sedes whom attend the CMRI, SGG, MHT Mass Centers are fully on board with the above. There's no "brainwashing" going on. I can't believe that you think that sedes want to or would be "part of the (Novus Ordo)system."
If anything, sedes view Francis' move with deep suspicion.
We didn't say all sedes want to be part of the NO. What we said is that we know that many individuals who assist at cult chapels would leave in a heartbeat were it not for the scare tactics with that imaginative bugbear una cum.
DeleteWe know all about the sede beliefs, believe us, and we know that most are cheap devices invented by scammers to keep the unwilling paying. Many, we admit, are honestly deluded by these figments of the imagination and are thereby unable to discern the questionable validity of their own "bishops" and their un-Catholic behavior.
Reader,
DeleteThanks for the clarification.
All I've been saying, is that defecting to the FSSP is a quantum leap too far for the sedevacantist non-una cum laity. I don't think any of them will jump ship. I accept, however, that some of those who jumped ship a few years ago may have ended up going to SSPX Masses, because I knew a handful that went online arguing in favor of una cum Masses while going to SGG.
I understand your opinions regarding the other matters you've raised, but a change in geography doesn't solve an endemic problem among all stripes of traditionalists (Btw, I don't consider it to be a problem - it's just par for the course), to wit: clergy asking for money. As we both know, it's a completely legitimate thing for clerics to engage in efforts to raise funds. So, if that's one of the reasons for making one's exit from, say, SGG, one may be mighty dismayed when they arrive at their next port of call to find that it's worse, far worse. The folowing is anecdotal, but hundreds of people out there could step forward and verify what I'm about to relay if I gave the specifics of the account.
I attended a SSPX chapel in the 1990s, and they (the clergy) were constantly, and I mean continually asking and pressuring for money, and dropping hints for the (large) amounts they'd like from each parishioner. It was one cause after another. One of the priests in this parish even went so far as to approach the elderly mother of one of my friends and suggest she wasn't long for this world (she's still alive and well), so why not leave her house (worth at the time upwards of $600,000) to the SSPX! This lady told me this directly, and asked what I'd do. I advised her to leave her worldly possessions to her many children, and possibly, if she wished, give a small donation to the Society.
Meanwhile, these priests were driving around in nice cars and wanted for nothing (and I've got no problem with that either, just saying). So, the clamoring for money is not exclusive to the sede clergy, of that I can assure you.
We have no doubt your anecdote is true. Clergy of every dispensation have always had their hands out. But our experience with the sedes shows a very different kind of money madness, a desire to feather their own nests accompanied by poor financial management.
DeleteWe're also certain that there will always be a core of depraved souls who will stay with the sede cults come hell or high water. But the sede clergy will lose the battle for new blood. If the privilege of celebrating the old rite isn't withdrawn but in fact extended, those migrating to traditional Catholicism will select the FSSP, not the cults, and the few decent people in the cults will leave, as they come to realize that the una cum prohibition is a monstrous marketing ploy having nothing to do with their faith.
(As an aside, we've never trusted this public lay enthusiasm for una cum. We think it's merely an attempt to earn brownie points with the cult "clergy." Unless there's a public declaration on the part of the celebrant, no one knows whether he recites the formula or not. IOHO, many who embrace the theory will abandon it if they find a more convenient or palatable alternative to the cults. Most people only want the Mass and could care less about these non-essential distractions. If you really yearn for the Tridentine Mass, you'll go wherever it's found.)
We'll grant that the cults will probably have enough people to keep them afloat for a time, but that support will dwindle as folks age, retire and move, or die. Furthermore, their children, many of whom are alienated from the cult masters, will see to it that their inheritance stays in the family, not with the cult masters. Without replacements, the cults will disappear. They will not be able to compete.
Reader,
DeleteFirstly. Thank you for engaging in this frank and open exchange of views.
IMHO, the SSPX is just as anxious to feather their own nest, perhaps more so which would account for all the professional help they hire. I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that there's many examples of waste and extravagance within their bureaucracy.
Why are Catholics who are doing their best to worship God being categorized by you as "depraved souls"? You're saying that these people are morally corrupt and wicked? How do they manage all that in the process of attending Mass to worship God in the manner they believe is the most pleasing to Him?
It's debatable whether Francis will extend permission to the FSSP. But it hardly matters when we're talking about an organization that is Novus Ordo and whose validity has been compromised by invalid Novus Ordo rites (I always speak from the sede perspective.) Btw, you haven't handled the aforementioned objection. Historically, those migrating from the Novus Ordo usually end up in the sede camp because their desire is to get as far away from the likes of Francis as possible (Gerry Matatics is a good example of this). So I don't agree with your prognostications regarding their likely slight shift into the pews of the FSSP.
I understand everything you've said regarding the una cum problem, including what you've stated which is enclosed by parentheses, but it's all refuted by your own, previous words in this discussion: "No, we do understand the sede thesis. And we understand that if a priest believes the See of Peter and the diocesan see are vacant, he will and should in accordance with the rubrics omit the names the incumbents."
And those of the laity whom believe likewise will only want to co-offer Masses where Francis' name and the name of the Novus Ordo Ordinary have been omitted.
As for the rest, I'm not seeing those trends. I'm seeing a generational adherence to SGG, MHT, CMRI and SSPV. I'm not trying to be difficult, just honest.
We're both giving opinions, and it's recognized and understood that you have just as much right as anyone else to make predictions.
I predict that as Francis extends his apostasy and heresy and general insanity further, people will flock to the sede clergy as they attempt to get as far away from him as is spiritually possible. Websites such as NOW are assisting this by opening the eyes of many souls.
The sophistry of the dogmatic “non una cum” people has been debunked years ago on the Bellarmine Forums, she link: http://strobertbellarmine.net/viewforum.php?f=12&sid=878f7d64593977266d82f4548ad398b8
DeleteExtravagance and waste can be a byproduct of all bureaucracies, but in an accountable bureaucracy, when money is wasted on furthering the personal interests of its members, the abusers are punished. But even when there's the normal waste of any human enterprise, an accountable bureaucracy operates with a certain amount of efficiency for the good of the organization and provides channels whereby individuals may seek relief from bad managers. No such thing exists in lawless, disorganized Tradistan.
DeleteWe classify these individuals as depraved because the behavior of the cult masters is widely known (for instance, the infamous 2009 $GG $chool $candal). Only the depraved can allow them to continue by providing support.
The charge of invalidity against the N.O. is merely a private opinion and has never been affirmed by competent ecclesiastical authority. You write with an apodictic certitude you cannot possess.
Likewise the vacancy of the Holy See. Those "priests" and people embracing the construct hold a private opinion, for which they have no authoritative declaration from the Church. Inasmuch as for us conscience is king, we understand their una cum policy, but that tolerance doesn't equate to a refutation of our firm belief that una cum is a fiction and we do not know if the See of Peter is vacant.
We know you're speaking from your own observations, but so too are we. In our analysis, any trend (which we personally don't see) will not hold. We do agree that Bergie's apostasy will drive souls to tradition, but we predict most won't fly to the sedes of Tradistan. There's too much out there about their bad behavior. Some of the refugees from Francis may head to other sede chapels without the bad reputation of the cults, but most will land in the FSSP or SSPX.
Whether Bergie will allow the old rite to be extended, we have no idea. We have a slight suspicion it will be. There are events unraveling now that Bergie either cannot or dares not attempt to control. But even if he nips the extension of the old rite in the bud, the FSSP and the SSPX will offer a far more attractive refuge than the sedes to the almost certain wave of migrants to come.
Reader,
DeleteThank you for your reply.
I thought I'd reply so as your readership knows that the discussion ended amicably, as for the time being this will be my last reply. But by all means have the last word.
I don't think that it can be shown that such accountability exists in any of the trad organizations. It's not something singular to, say, SGG. They're probably better than most considering how you regularly point out that you don't believe they have much cash to work with in the first place. Personally, it doesn't concern me, for when I donate the expectation is that they'll utilize the funds correctly. If the money is used, for example, to buy a luxury or two I don't care because the clergy have got to live too. Shouldn't they be able to enjoy an occasional Hoyo de Monterrey Sultan?
As far as the "depraved" business - it's obvious that many people agree with you insofar some of the eyebrow-raising goings on, but they don't agree with what you now believe should've and should be the reaction. My opinion is that it's absurd to attach an adjective like "depraved" to them. But it's a free country so you may do so if you so desire.
The invalidity of the Mass and of Orders and the sedevacantist thesis are backed up by sound theology, and until these theses can be thoroughly refuted I consider that the Novus Ordo Missae is so doubtful that to flee would be an understatement of the course one should take. One should retreat from Francis and anything that the VII nopes put their fingers to as if they have the bubonic plague. Even "Messr. John Salza" concluded that the NOM was as good as invalid. Which is to be read as: "Sorry people, I've got no hope of refuting that it's invalid."
As for the rest: Well expressed opinions, but antithetical to the non-una cum sedes who won't be shifting towards the Novus controlled FSSP.
Now as far as the bad behavior is concerned: There are appalling stories about all trad groups. I'm not going to start listing the demerits of the SSPX, FSSP, SSPV, SGG etc. etc. In justice I'd have to go all the way back to the time of the Conquistadors and list bad behavior on the part of certain Spaniards who were baptized Catholics. There's really no percentage in it. But what I will say is that I know of many that are becoming sedes due to the good example of sede clergy and laity. People can deny it until the cows come home but it doesn't mean it isn't true. I'll leave you with this thought. The predominant fault I perceive in sedeplenists is a tendency to liberalism. The predominant fault I see in the sedes is a tendency to Rigorism. All of them have a problem, some more than others, of making things up as they go along. ALL groups without exception suffer from this problem.
The ReaderApril 3, 2018 at 5:54 PM
ReplyDeleteThen they are really Roman Catholic.
In reality, yes, that's what they are, but they won't say so because Rome is in such a mess and hence they won't join an Anglican-use parish.
DeleteOne group has sought valid orders from a multi-lineage bishop, and they use the Anglican Missal ("Ordinary of the Mass with Gregorian Canon") and Anglican Breviary.
Luckily their "priest" had read divinity in an Anglo-Catholic theological school, so they don't suffer from the same malformed "clergy" as Tradistan. In fact, the man is a very fine Latinist and a decent Grecian to boot.
OMG! This sounds too good to be true. Can you give us a clue as to their location?
DeleteWe'll have to ask them. They've been keeping a low profile because they worry about the Tradistanis' harassing their people and trying to get them to leave by spreading tales of invalidity or non-canonicity. We can tell you they're located in the Western US.
DeleteMany thanks, but I don’t understand why a group of Anglicans would worry about Tradistanis.
DeleteA good concern, and we'll tell you why they're so put off.
DeleteWhen they first began, they opened up their chapel to anyone who wanted to attend. They soon attracted some Trads, who almost as soon as they arrived began to criticize the very English décor and push the "priest" to celebrate the Latin Mass. One day after Mass, they loudly demanded to know the names the celebrant recited at " N. our chief Bishop, and N. our own Bishop." (He says the canon in a secret voice.) They also lobbied for a very strict dress code à la Sinburn. Next, their board began to receive letters suggesting that they make contact with a cult kingpin to "regularize" them and install "valid" clergy. It became even worse, until the board finally disinvited all but those with an Anglo-Catholic background. As a result, it is now very difficult to join the chapel, and only pre-approved visitors may attend. They've got the money to adopt such an exclusionary policy.
On a happy note, no one left, and all laughed at the charge of invalidity. The independent "bishop" who ordained the "priest" has a bulletproof set of lineages, all with documentation in Latin, Greek, etc. Fortunately, the entire group is made up of professionals who aren't impressed with the malformed Tradistanis, whom they now know to be of dubious validity. (We know all this because they wrote to us for assistance.)
Were those Tradistanis Latin scholars of sterling reputation that they could understand a Latin sermon? No need to answer since my question is really rhetorical.
DeleteThank you for your very kind and detailed response to my earlier inquiry!
This is no answer — only a comment: a "Tradistani Latin scholar" is a contradictio in terminis.
Deletehttps://www.britannica.com/event/Anglo-Catholicism
DeleteThey're part of the Anglican communion. They are heretics and schismatics.
What sort of con are you pulling, Reader?
No con.
DeleteWe're just informing people that there are some in the Anglican tradition who adhere to the same faith as the Latin Church. And BTW, not all Anglo-Catholics belong to the Anglican Communion. Some are independent, exactly like the sedes. We personally are acquainted with many who would have gladly contracted Roman Fever had not Rome defected. Others who don't think Rome defected belong to the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter.
You need better material than an encyclopedia link.
P.S.
One of the benefits of associating with Anglo-Catholics is that they're are so much higher on the social and educational scale than the Tradistani laity and "clergy."
Thanks. They're heretics and schismatics, and had NO starting point as Catholics. How dare you compare them to sede clergy; Catholics acting under epikeia and supplied jurisdiction.
DeleteSTOP associating with heretics, Reader.
Absolute nonsense. In addition to reading up on Anglo-Catholisim, you are in dire need of instruction re: epieikeia and supplied jurisdiction. We've provided good source material in previous comments sections.
DeleteWe dare compare the sedes because they are outside the Roman Church and act lawlessly. The only difference is that the Anglo-Catholics are better educated and have better genes.
No. I disagree with your beliefs about epikeia and supplied jurisdiction. And these anglos you've fallen in love with on the west coast are not Catholics. These particular people have no start as baptized Catholics. They are Anglicans. Heretics. Get it now? If they are outside the Anglican Communion, they are considered schismatics by the schismatics. Quit assuming you are the repository of all knowledge, stop comparing them to the Catholics whom believe that we are in a state of sede vacante and quit giving scandal by lending an inference that these Anglos are approachable, and stop having traffic with heretics.
DeleteIt's not a matter of our "beliefs." It's a fact. Do yourself a favor and read Riley's The History, Nature, and Use of EPIKEIA in Moral Theology.
DeleteAs for supplied jurisdiction, a study of the conditions will make it plain that the sedes can never benefit, for the Church supplies jurisdiction to her priests, not to interloping, malformed impostors who have never possessed — and never can possess — any jurisdiction. There can never exist the common error of a false conviction about jurisdiction. There is no positive fact to cause the faithful to believe a "priest" had required jurisdiction, no matter how much the "clergy" lie. Likewise, there is no doubt, positive or negative, about whether these men could have jurisdiction. Never having received a commission from the Church, they never possessed any jurisdiction at all. It is therefore not even probable that they possess jurisdiction, which belongs to real Catholic clergy and therefore can be supplied only to them.
(We won't reply to your remarks about the Anglo-Catholics because of your demonstrated cluelessness. Hence, we are closing this thread.)
I’m going to just go off your Post Title: Appearances vs. Reality.
ReplyDeleteBeing a past cult follower, I can tell you that one of the places you mention is only about appearances. It is all about the show. Over and over again the newsletters about Francis instead of how one can strive to save your soul and that of your loved ones. Over and over again, talking about the world and shutting yourself away from it, while at the same time, pretending the phony cult center is actually the only place you can get to Heaven.
Heads up to all that are thinking this place is a Catholic Heaven: it’s not. It’s all for appearances. The kids listen to rock and roll, they are not as pure as they dress at church (and the girls even wear pants after they get in the car when they are out of the parents’ site, not that there is anything wrong with it, but these places condemn it). The kids are quiet and well behaved at mass because the parents beat them if they are not. There are smokers and drinkers among the teens, just like any other place. The kids sneak out to watch movies, and they also get on the internet, even though it’s against the rules. They have girls sneaking out windows to meet other kids, and you have boys doing the unthinkable. The priests know this, and they tend to cover it up. The parents turn a blind eye because their kids would never do that.
In addition, you have a lot of crazies at these places. You have several people who have mental illnesses developing or even already diagnosed because of the overly harsh and strict environments. Some live in their own reality. Many are on medication or have been hospitalized. They take whatever their leader says as Our Lord’s own words.
I’ve never seen a place as psychologically manipulative and as insane as this place. It is spiritually manipulative. They use confession as their own blackmail box and use their own opinions on what a mortal sin is. Common sense does not prevail at this place. Many say that they are only there for the mass because they dislike the people in charge. Many talk about how cold the place is, and I’m not talking about the temperature on the thermostat. Others have been driven out of the place when they have disagreed with the priests in charge. Money from the parish has been misused. There is no accountability. You have a priest who has psychologically lost all sense of reality, but for some reason has the arrogance to still con people out of money and thinking he is the only one who holds the faith.
Stay away from this place. If something looks to good to be true, it probably is.
In my experience, some of the mht followers are beginning to see the waste and are getting mad. They saw the chores being posted at the seminary (one being to keep their beer refrigerator stocked) as wasteful. The constant building havoc of something breaking and needing money to be fixed, yet the priests driving very nice vehicles, taking European trips that appear (Documented by MHT newsletters) that there are only handfuls of people to his conferences, while enjoying the food and touristy attractions and us wondering who is footing the bill, nepotism among the elite family, drinking fine wine, paying for Cekada’s monthly vacations here, a shrinking number of parishioners, coldness of the parish, the ceremonies, lack of new people, the new convent, the future cemetery (which is obviously a money making opportunity), the broken promises of future money potential that never seems to come about, etc.
ReplyDeleteMany are wondering if he is more of a traveling. Salesman? Look at how many places the big guy has floated between and look who always follows him. Was the seminary and church built for jr Selway? Is all of this just an elaborate money making scheme? Why are so many seminarians from poor countries? Are the seminarians even paying for their education, or are we footing the bill for that too? How much longer will it be before he asks for more money for an even bigger seminary?
On a side note, one of jr.’s consecration photos shows two nuns in the side photo. They look depressed and dismal. One of the nuns appears to be always at the other’s side. Is the younger one being held hostage? Another thing to note is that you would think the church would be packed for such a “happy” and joyous occasion, but half of our own parish didn’t come. According to the pictures, many empty seats were there. Seems like they didn’t have as much support as they put out that they had.
Hello the Reader.This would have to be one of your best articles.Perhaps another bit of advice to folk leaving these cults,put all the sede publications(newsletters,bulletins,cds,etc)out in the trash cart.Out of sight,out of mind.God bless
ReplyDeleteExcellent advice. Tomorrow's post will reinforce your suggestion to throw everything the Tradistanis have written into the garbage.
DeletePistrina Liturgica/The Reader
ReplyDeleteA blessed Easter-tide.
You might be interested to know we had the pre-1955 Holy Week Rites here at our FSSP Church in Idaho.The people really enjoyed them.You should take note that a number of the FSSP Churches used these Rites this year.
We have a number of former CMRI folk here.
Thanks for the update. We are aware that in many places where the ordinary has given permission, the old rite was celebrated, with a great turnout. We can see why the CMRI folks went there since CMRI celebrates the "reformed" rite of Pius XII.
DeleteBTW, we are hearing reports of FSSP priests buying old Missals and Breviaries in preparation for a greater extension of the old rite. Our gut feeling is that this thing has legs.
Did the FSSP give communion to re-married adulterers(or do they practice VC2/Clinton's policy of don't ask don't tell for the first 50 years)? How about sodomite couples? Did they baptize some transvestite couples' children? Hear they routinely have no problem w/uncovered women transvestites, communion in the hand, nor contraception. And they only fast two times during Lent--how fantastic to have "old rite" Holy Week and "new rite" Lent!!!! Does that mean we can mix and match everything, including the mass and calendar, (w/permission of course)? What the dif? Know Pistrina is down w/all the modern conveniences - why don't you all just join the Church of England? Their rites go back to 1500s.
DeleteFYI: The Sarum rite formed the basis of the BCP, so one should say that CofE rites go back to the 11th century.
DeleteYes, I watched the FSSP Vigil Service from their church in France. Very beautiful but I am curious to what extent these folks ensure that their congregants have knowledge of Latin.
DeleteI remember a fellow back in the day who could not pass the Classical Latin course, but God wanted him to be a priest and directed him to the Capuchins. Now they had developed a Latin course based on the liturgy, the Bible and certain scholastics which he passed with flying colors.
He went on to be a pious and holy priest.
Perhaps this would be possible for the laity.
Perhaps it could be possible, but there's no absolute need for the laity to know Latin in order to assist fruitfully at Mass. That was a reformist lie.
DeleteWe don't know how old you are, but many of us at PL grew up before V2. We can attest that most lay Catholics in those days knew very little Latin and still loved the Tridentine Mass. By the '50s, almost everyone had a bilingual Missal to follow along if so desired. It's the same situation in Traddieland today, if not more so. At least back in the '50's and early '60's, many of the faithful had studied some Latin in high school, whereas today, given America's dreadful secondary education, many people don't even take a modern language in school.
Of course, another difference between the trads of today and Catholics of yesteryear is that the trad "priests" are not entirely competent in Latin. We know of one sede idiot whose "bishop" gave him permission to read his Breviary in English. The man was so ignorant of the language that he could not read the rubrics for handling the chalice on All Souls' Day. The same moron insisted on saying the Pius XII rite, but he could not understand the rubrics for Palm Sunday and therefore botched the Gospels.
We should note that in the past, there were introductions to liturgical Latin to help nuns understand the Divine Office and Mass or to assist the laity. (Scarre's 1932 little volume for the Dominicans is a good example. Diamond also produced a larger book in 1941 for study clubs, religious, and high schools.) These are fine works, but we don't know how useful they would be today because they require a solid background in grammatical terminology, without which the student cannot make effective use of the books. For instance, the "priest" we referred to could never have used these books profitably.
"We don't know how old you are, but many of us at PL grew up before V2."
DeleteWow! You sound positively ancient! How many of you use "Zimmer Frames"?
Fortunately, the seventies are the new fifties.
DeleteOf course one can obtain the benefits of a Latin mass without knowing Latin, but I
DeleteI also think that the internet will continue to be of great benefit to the cause. Indeed had it been around I don’t think the nightmare of Vatican II would have been so devastating.
Look what happened at a Greek church when a bishop had the nerve to use a modern Greek version of the Gospel. Pushing and shoving to let him know of their disapproval. That’s when the laity is invested.
Those books you mentioned are quite good. Nunn’s Ecclesiastical Latin and his Greek books, as I recall, begin from the beginning with a review of English basics before proceeding to the matter at hand. An RSCJ nun, I think she was, had a book on Latin for the breviary and included Aquinas that was very helpful. In the hands of a dedicated Latin teacher the books really don’t matter.
If you’re going to do Latin services go all the way as Charlie Bukowski would have said. (Alas, he hated the Latin mass because he found it so boring. Now had he had Latin...)
Sent from my iPad
bsolutely we agree that having had Latin makes everything much more interesting. What's more, it doesn't take that much time to get enough Ecclesiastical Latin to navigate most of the Missal. (The hymns and many of the non-Scriptural lessons of the Breviary require more experience and knowledge of syntax.) One of the Readers offered a twice-weekly liturgical Latin class to adults, who gained an acceptable proficiency after 6 months. That's why we find so offensive the incompetence of the "priest" we mentioned.
DeleteNunn's introduction to syntax does indeed provide a comprehensive and logically ordered explanation of terms in simple language, but we fear it is still too hard for some abysmally educated trads, who have never encountered academic discourse.
The Catholics who grew up Pre-V2 have the most chance of spotting a counterfeit Catholic Church, since they have seen the real Church as it should be.
DeleteCharles Bukowski was a mentally ill alcoholic atheist.
DeleteIf someone like him hates Latin Mass I am all for it!
We hadn't thought of Bukowski for years until our correspondent brought up his name. The downward inter-generational socioeconomic mobility of his family as narrated in Ham on Rye reminds us of the origins of the Tradistani clergy and the reasons for their money madness.
DeleteAs far as making the claim the 1968 Rite of Ordination and Consecration is invalid have you Reader or the staff ever made a comment of the Chapters on this subject in the book of Salsa and Siscoe - True or False Pope.
ReplyDeleteNo, we haven't yet had occasion to comment on those particular chapters.
DeleteI would urge everyone on here to read the numerous threads on the True or False Pope refutation page before giving Siscoe and Salza any credence:
Deletehttp://tradcath.proboards.com/board/40/true-false-pope-refutation-page
Their work is shoddy at best.
The sad thing about the condition of the Church today is that it makes it easy for those selling a false commodity known as " A BLAST FROM THE PAST", Nostalgia, a/k/a" I Remember When". True Tradition must live within the hearts of those who remember, and can pass it down without all the money making schemes attached to the essence of the Faith.
ReplyDeleteBecause we are in such a sad state of affairs we must rely on what was always taught, and interpreted by Holy Mother Church by saints and scholars under a legitimate authority from a different era. Today, unfortunately, we are the by- product of a society that has destroyed our legitimate institutions of higher learning, and are the witnesses to a collapsing civilization. Gone are the days were marks counted, and scholastic competition was not only coveted by the student, but also by the once upon a time Ivy League Universities of Academia that competed throughout the world, and hence created cultured scholars for all walks of life.
Today garbage in, garbage out, that is, if they can even graduate from a garbage dump.
Then these products of a failing society, if they choose the religious life, enter into the seminaries, and then get ordained into the priesthood to ultimately become failing shepherds.
The difference between the malformed Doctor of Medicine, and the malformed Doctor of Theology is if the latter goofs up, it is the eternal price for your soul.
We are in serious times, and only those who are aware of what was, can see the damage of what is, and what is coming.
Pray for the Restoration of The Church, and endorse those who support that agenda, and not their own.